Difference between revisions of "Pompeii"
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=== Ancient fish sauce used for dating ===
=== Ancient fish sauce used for dating ===
Revision as of 16:45, 28 November 2019
|Type 3||Myth creation|
|Years||79 AD (allegedly)|
1631 (eruption Vesuvio)
|Dates||24 August or 24 October|
|Place||South of Naples|
Italy & Spanish Empire
|Perps||King Charles III of Spain,|
Emmanuel Maurice (1700s)
Benito Mussolini (1923-44)
|Podcasts||FAC 611 - Hidden Histories|
Note: this topic is subject to on-going research, which means conclusions and ideas change quickly based on new sources of information
Pompeii and Herculaneum are allegedly Roman era archeological sites in southern Italy. They are located near the Tyrrhenian coast, south of Naples. According to mainstream historiography, the towns were destroyed by the 79 AD large Plinian (the origin of the name) volcanic eruption of Mount Vesuvius, Europe's most active volcano.[W 1][W 2]
The sites were discovered "by accident" between 1709 (Herculaneum) and 1738, when two palaces were built which would later host the artifacts found at the sites. Following the War of the Spanish Succession between the Bourbon and Habsburg families, the Kingdom of Naples changed rule to the Habsburgs (1711-1735), after which king Charles III of Spain became the ruler of Naples. He together with his wife ordered the construction of various buildings around the time. The couple was involved in the construction of villas with sculptors, painters and other builders, and they were on site for decades.
Emmanuel Maurice bought property around 1709 after there were discovered some marbles and started excavating until he left for France in 1716. He is not supposed to have met Charles but it is mentioned that the couple had seen his Villa in 1738.
Convicts, slaves and children were used in the excavation of Herculaneum and Pompeii.
- 1 Summary
- 2 I Evidence for destruction in 79
- 3 II Evidence against 79 destruction
- 4 III Evidence for the destruction event being the eruption of 1631
- 5 IV Using the actual finds to distinguish between the 2 dates
- 6 V Dubious claims in the established sources and not widely known reconstruction efforts
- 7 VI Leon Battista Alberti
- 8 VII Bombing in WWII (1943) and reconstruction
- 9 VIII Views by Anatoly Fomenko
- 10 IX Erotic art
- 11 X Hypothesis matrix
- 12 See also
- 13 References
|Pompeii & Herculaneum|
|Chapters||Pompeii & Herculaneum|
|04||Conclusions & ideas|
- the alleged eruption could not have destroyed the cities if we have multiple maps of the 16th and 17th centuries where both Pompeii and Herculaneum are shown
- only 1 witness account of this eruption exists, that by Pliny the Younger (the origin of the term Plinian eruption)
- his account is not convincing
- Famous architect Domenico Fontana builds the Sarno Canal to bring water from the Sarno River to a gun powder factory. Allegedly he discovered the lost Pompeii and covered it up after he was finished. The depth of the water conduit is not very considerable with respect to the zero level of Pompeii and, with some exceptions, it always goes under streets, house walls, and carefully goes around more or less important facilities.
- The Italian Plague of 1629–1631 was a series of outbreaks of Bubonic Plague which ravaged northern and central Italy. This epidemic, often referred to as the Great Plague of Milan, claimed possibly one million lives, or about 25% of the population
- "Heavy eruption of Vesuvius, featured on lots of drawings and in a few books"
- the account by Mascuoli (1633) about the eruption of Vesuvio in 1631 describe the destruction of Herculaneum and Pompey by some kind of flow, alleged to have happened in 79 AD
- the description itself is convincing for the destruction of the two towns
- various sources have described this account as describing those of 79 AD, or at least "very similar"
- according to historical documents, Herculaneum was discovered by accident in 1709 1709
- after Emmanuel went to France in 1716 the excavations were "stopped for almost 20 years"
- A work of Isaac Newtons "The Chronology of Ancient Kingdoms Amended" challenges the then accepted chronology that was (and still is) essentially based on an interpretation of the Bible
- king Charles III of Spain (ruling for just 3 years) saw the villa of Emmanuel Maurice and where so impressed they wanted to build a palace near the location.
- in 1738 the finds were made public with the convenient construction of not one, but two palaces and a third already existing one
- the most important finds in the "Theater of Herculaneum" were "discovered" at just 600 m from what later became the main museum, the Palazzo ....
- Emmanuel Maurice marries the 30 years junior Innocentia ..., an "immensely wealthy" woman
- family in law involved with Habsburgs and Bourbon families
- Emmanuel Maurice is made Duke of Elbeuf
- Habsburg rule in HRE, Bourbon rule in Spain/Naples
- Charles (who?) visits Pompeii with his kids and is "appalled" by the naked art
- Under direction of Giuseppe Fiorelli, the director of the excavations, the first plaster casts are made in Pompeii, allegedly reconstructing the bodies by pouring plaster in air pockets that where left by human (or animal) remains.
- the fascist regime of Benito Mussolini were very important in the "restoration" of Herculaneum to "in an attempt to recreate the glory of the Roman empire".[M 1]
- bombing of Pompeii during World War II by Allied forces, allegedly 163 bombs were dropped.
- After the war, many of the structures were rebuilt
- Russian mathemathician Anatoly T. Fomenko in his book: "The Issue with Chronology" casts serious doubts on the dating of the ruins writing that "Pompeii might have been destroyed and buried by ashes during the well-known eruption of the Vesuvius that occurred in 1500 or even by the eruption of 1631.
- Dipl.-Ing. (TU) Andreas Tschurilow, Deggendorf, Bavaria, Germany publishes a book "Features of the Domenico Fontana’s Water Conduit (the Canal of Count Sarno) and the Date of Pompeii Destruction" arguing for a destruction date of 1631
- First cast allegedly made of a horse in Pompeii.
- Photos from this cast differ quite a lot across publications, for example in some of the photos it has an ear.
- World news: A charcoal message found in Pompeii forces the scientific community to reconsider the date of the eruption ....to one month later 10/24/79
I Evidence for destruction in 79
There have been many eruptions of the Vesuvius that could have caused the burial of the cities that were found. Why do the early excavators thought it happened in 79? Because it is was assumed that in 79 AD cities were destroyed by an Vesuvius eruption, based on historical texts.
Pliny the Younger
He is considered an eyewitness of the eruption, he wrote 2 letters to Tacitus describing the events. He doesn’t give a year, but it is inferred from other sources that it happened in 79 AD and that the letters are written in 96-109, so at least 17 years after the event. The tale about his uncle is quite heroic. He gives no information on the fate of the cities, not even mentioning one death beside his uncles. Published in 1508.
Roman historians Dio Cassius and Suetonius
They both wrote about an eruption of the Vesuvius in the first year of the reign of Emperor Titus, from which the date for the eruption is inferred to be 79 AD. Neither of them give any sources. Only Dio Cassius gives details and writes: “an inconceivable quantity of ashes... buried two entire cities, Herculaneum and Pompeii, the latter place while its populace was seated in the theatre.“ (No bodies have been found buried in the theatre of Pompeii)
Both write about how the emperor commissioned ex-consuls to restore the damage. According to Suetonius “The estates of those who had perished by the eruption of Vesuvius, and who had left no heirs, he applied to the repair of the ruined cities.”
- Dio Cassius: "he restored all the damaged regions from funds already on hand"
- Suetonius, writing in 121 AD and Dio Cassius even later, must possibly have known if the cities were abandoned or not, but they don’t mention it.
- Seneca: "So the sources don't actually say the cities were abandoned during that period. Is there evidence of the contrary?"
II Evidence against 79 destruction
Pompeii and Herculaneum marked on ancient maps
See also List of historical maps
This is acknowledged for the Peutinger map for which the oldest copy is dated to the 13h century. The depiction of the allegedly destroyed cities is used as an argument that at least part of the map is based on a Roman map of 12 BC by Vipsanius Agrippa. The map was copied and revised multiple times because it shows Constantinople (founding dated 330 AD) and the prominence of Ravenna, seat of the Western Roman Empire from 402 to 476, but the destruction of the cities was never indicated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Peutingeriana
What is ignored is that every other historical map that is available[M 6] from before 1700 also contains at least the city of Pompeii, indicated in the same way as other living cities, sometimes with a little drawing of buildings. The location is always similar to where it is now, on the west bank of the Sarno river, some distance from the sea. But not so similar that it looks they just copied older maps. Seneca:I don’t think the maps are accurate enough to help one discover the exact location of the towns, as some fakeologists suggest.
Canal of Count Sarno
From 1594-1600 the famous architect Domenico Fontana builds the Sarno Canal to bring water from the Sarno River to a gun powder factory. The first man, who at the end of the sixteenth century considered using the power of the river of Sarno for industrial purposes, was the richest and the most ill-starred Count of Sarno, Maurizio d’Estoutteville, who had French roots. The problem was that the river of Sarno, in its lower reaches, made loops, and leveled off with small drops in elevation. Therefore the water level was subject to seasonal variation. That is why d’Estoutteville decided to use the most northern of the three main sources of Sarno and to construct an artificial canal that should flawlessly bring water to Torre Annunziata, to the mills of the plant constructed by d’Estoutteville. The construction of the water conduit was entrusted to the architect Domenico Fontana.
The official story, mentioned on a sign on the archeological site is that Domenico Fontana discovered the lost Pompeii and covered it up after he was finished. The depth of the water conduit is not very considerable with respect to the zero level of Pompeii and, with some exceptions, it always goes under streets, house walls, and carefully goes around more or less important facilities. There were many places that gave access to the conduct, even inside the houses. Or stairs were built under the ground to the canal. (Seneca:some investigators use the word “well” but I avoid it because it has different meanings) All evidence points that it was built when there were still people living there. Probably the mills were also located in the city, otherwise it had made more sense to go past the city.
Proponents for the destruction date of 79 can argue that the canal that is now present in the excavated Pompei does not correspond to this canal but that it has been built by the Romans or the people before them. They would be in contradiction with the archeologists in charge of the site. Everything points in the direction that the archeologist excavating Pompeii don’t consider a lot of the features of the canal as ancient. "Wells" documented after the excavation were removed. Entrances to the canal are hidden. Photos from the access points or canal are not presented along with the rest of the ancient infrastructure. And on a sign in the area and on the website of the archeological site they stick to the story of Pompey being discovered and reburied during the construction of the canal:[M 7]
The XV century author Jacopo Sannazaro wrote: “We were approaching the town (Pompeii), and could already see its towers, houses, theatres and temples, untouched by the centuries ” (quoted in “The Book of Cosmas Indicopleustes. Published by V. S. Golyshenko and V. F. Doubrovina. RAS, the V. V. Vinogradov Institute of the Russian Language. Moscow, Indrik, 1997”, page 31).
More to come
III Evidence for the destruction event being the eruption of 1631
The following arguments are at the same time arguments against the dating of the destruction in 79.
In 1633, two years after the eruption, a book was published tiled “De incendio vesuvi excitato XVII. Kal. Ianuar anno trigesimo primo saeculi decimo septimi” written by Giovanni Battista Masculi (Mascolo) an eyewitness, he writes about Herculaneum and Pompeii. Toward each of the cities ran down a “very quick fire flow. “(the cities once recovered from the ashes, I do not know if they will be alive again)...
In the accompanying illustrations/maps of the situation before and after the “fire” both cities are drawn as normal medieval cities, as well as Stabiae (which is presumed to have been destroyed at the same time). The book can be read on Google Play.
On the way from Naples to Torre Annunziata, about 15 km away from Naples, there is a monument, a memorial or epitaph on the front of the Faraone Mennella's villa (Via Nazionale al N. 279) for the persons who died because of the eruption of Vesuvius in 1631. On one of these plates, written in Latin is the list of damaged cities contains Pompeii and Herculaneum, together with Octavianum, Reatina (Resina, now called Ercolano) and Porticus (Portici). It was made in 1635 by Manuel de Acevedo y Zúñiga, 6th count of Monterrey, Viceroy of Naples.
It is estimated that about 3000-6000 people died.[M 8]
Mentions of Pompeii and Herculaneum as living cities stop
If we would find any source that mentioned the cities as living cities between 1631 and the rediscovery around 1709 this would contradict both the 1631 and the 79 date. There are none.
This was also the time of the 1629–1631 Italian plague which killed for example 46% of the population in Milan. It is possible that the survivors didn’t bother to reclaim their homes since there were so many empty houses and workplaces. According to the accounts of the discovery, the hill were Pompeii was found was called “La cività” which means city in Italian. The site now called Herculaneum was built over by the city of Resina (now called Ercolano).
IV Using the actual finds to distinguish between the 2 dates
So far we have not reviewed the actual finds that were done after the discovery of the cities. It would seem easy to see the difference between objects that were buried in 79 AD or 1631 AD, that is a 1552 year difference!
We have to keep some things in mind though:
- from the start, explorers and conservators had the 79 AD date in mind
- items have been destroyed or stolen
- some of the items have reconstructed
- items can have been forged
- dating methods like C-14 have been proven to be unreliable for such young dates'
- These excavations have been among the first and most important and have become a benchmark that is used to date other findings. So if we would use these other findings to compare them again we would be doing circular reasoning.
Three Graces Fresco
A fresco recovered in Pompeii, fits very well in a series of artworks of the Renaissance[M 9], especially: Francesco Cossa: Allegory of April: Triumph of Venus (detail) (1476-84) and Raffaello Sanzio: The Three Graces (1504-05) - Oil on panel In all three works, the women have almost the same posture. But it is sometimes suggested that these later works were inspired by ancient statues. In the Louvres of Paris there is an alleged Roman copy of a 2nd century AD after a Hellenistic original. It was restored in 1609 by Nicolas Cordier (the heads and hands). The origins of this statue are not documented. It also resembles a marble statue (without heads and hands) allegedly a Roman copy of a Greek work of the 2nd century, found in 1892 buried in Rome[M 10]
The surgical instruments found in Pompeii are considered to be evidence that Ancient Roman Medicine was very advanced.
The following quotes are all by Wayne F. Lorenz, president of Wright Water Engineers, Inc. a civil engineering firm based in Denver, Colorado. He is also director of Roman Aqueduct Studies at the Wright Paleohydrological Institute, a nonprofit research firm that studies how ancient peoples used water: [R 3]
"The design of ancient Roman water valves is remarkably similar to our modern plug valve design."
"What is remarkable is that these 2000-year-old valves are quite similar to water valves that can be purchased at local hardware stores today!"
"The valves were also very much alike in material composition. Copper, lead and tin were very important materials in the Roman metallurgical industry. They provided resistance to corrosion and friction and the ductility required for easy manufacture"
"The metal composition shown above for the ancient valves corresponds very closely to the modern ASTM B67 standard for journal bearings used in automobiles and railroad cars."
"One can marvel that the Roman valve design from more than 2,000 years ago is strikingly similar to our modern design."
There is a floor mosaic from the "house of the Ephebe" in Pompeii that shows a basket of fruit with figs, grapes, pomegranates, and something that very much resembles a pineapple.
Since pineapples (a New World crop) are supposed to only have been known after 1493, this gives more credibility to the 1631 date. The conventional explanation is that these are pine cones from Pinus pinea (also known as stone pine or umbrella pine). They are 8–15 centimeters (3.1–5.9 in) long and contain edible pine nuts. But we can clearly see leaves attached to them.[M 11]
Other explanations that are given is that this proves early transatlantic contact, it could also be a fake.
State of preservation
"Freshly fallen ash grains commonly have surface coatings of soluble components (salts) and/or moisture. These components can make ash mildly corrosive and potentially conductive. The soluble coatings are derived from the interactions in an eruption column between ash particles and volcanic-gas aerosols, which may be composed of sulphuric and hydrochloric acid droplets with absorbed halide salts. The amount of available aerosols varies greatly between eruptions of similar size and volume."[M 12]
Here the extra 1552 years also makes a lot of difference.
V Dubious claims in the established sources and not widely known reconstruction efforts
There are many claims either made by archeologists or that they don't debunk
See for more detail Plaster casts of Pompeii
In 1863 Giuseppe Fiorelli, the director of the excavations, came up with an ingenious idea for reconstructing the bodies by pouring plaster in air pockets that where left by human (or animal) remains. Even until 2018 new casts are still being made based on the same method.
Seneca:Any scientist who takes some time to look at the claims about how the cast are made from a critical stance will quickly see that they are an impossibility. This cast serious doubts on the credibility of everyone involved, especially the management of the Archaeological sites.
Ancient fish sauce used for dating
Seneca:This shows either that the archeologists think we are stupid or they are unscientific. In 2019 they have investigated bones of little fish that were inside a jar with ancient fish sauce (“garum”) found in Pompeii. They concluded that the fish were caught during the summer season or at the beginning of autumn. Since the fish are normally left to soak for about a month they infer when the eruption could have happened: “On the other hand, it’s also possible that the date could have been later than August 24th and possibly even into October if the fish were caught at the end of summer and left to soak for a month.”
“The analyses undertaken on the remains found in an amphora from the “garum shop” indicates that…… the picarels were not subject to any intense process of movement or compression that could have caused breakage at fragile points of the fish skeletons; it is therefore deduced that the product was still in the maceration stage awaiting the final process when the Pompeii destruction happened.” .[M 13]
Seneca:So the only reason that the fish (in just one amphora)could still be in the “maceration stage” was because the destruction of Pompeii happened before they could continue to prepare them after waiting a month. Apparently they have ruled out all other possibilities?? I am just suggesting one: maybe the owner was sick and he thought that he could leave them a little longer since he knew his product was so good that it would stay preserved anyway for 1900 years
However in 2018 it was announced that they now believe it was the 24th of October.
In the three centuries since the discovery they had found some good arguments that suggested that the eruption took place later in the year than August 24:
- based on the distribution of the different layers of ash, researchers believe that the wind was blowing from the east when Vesuvius erupted; yet easterlies don't typically blow in the Naples area during the summer
- warm clothing found on the victims and braziers in the housed with would only be necessary after summer
- the fact that autumn fruits like pomegranates and walnuts were found among the food stores
- jars of wine – made from grapes that don't usually ripen until late September – had already been set to ferment
- The only clue that spoke for an earlier dating was the presence of garum soup (see above)
- So what really made them change their minds in 2018? In a newly excavated area, inside a house there was found a description with the date 17 october. They think it is impossible that this writing could have survived 11 months “since it was done infragile and evanescent charcoal , which could not have been able to last long“.Seneca:So it lasted 1938 years while it was buried but it could not last 11 months inside a house????[M 14]
Seneca:The story was widely published. It looks like a fake story.
- Searching with Google for <pompeii charcoal "rewrite history"> gives 29.600 hits!
- The ancient texts used to prove the date of 79 can be interpreted to fit many dates, from 21 august to December in the case of Pliny. And in the case of Dio Cassius it can be “At the end of summer” or “at the end of autumn”. But in any case, the December 1631 dating respects all the evidence except for the garum fish soup evidence.
VI Leon Battista Alberti
"During this time he studied the ancient ruins, which excited his interest in architecture and strongly influenced the form of the buildings that he designed
He distinguished himself as a writer while he was still a child at school, and by the age of twenty had written a play which was successfully passed off as a genuine piece of Classical literature.
In 1452, he completed De re aedificatoria,[W 4] a treatise on architecture, using as its basis the work of Vitruvius and influenced by [or influenced the faking of?] the archaeological remains of Rome. The work was not published until 1485.
De re aedificatoria remained the classic treatise on architecture from the 16th until the 18th century.[no ref given]"
VII Bombing in WWII (1943) and reconstruction
- In 1943 during World War II, 163 bombs were dropped by Allied forces. *"After the war, many of the structures were rebuilt with the help of an American and British team of experts. The renovation of Pompeii started in 1944 and continued for more than 15 years."
- On this site you can compare the photos from before and after the reconstructioncompare photos of WWII and today
Benito Mussolini (1923-44)
VIII Views by Anatoly Fomenko
IX Erotic art
Sometime in the "re"construction of Pompeii, many murals explicitly depicting sexual acts were added. An account from 1819 speaks about the "appalling" images. If that testimony is credible, the murals must have been made before 1819, and probably after 1709, when the excavations "were halted for almost 20 years".
- Where does this come from?
- Hypothesis Gaia: "The time of Marquis De Sade, French-Savoy, was the "1960s of history"; late 1700s"
- Erotic art must have been very specific to an age and thus typifies when this overprinting was done; compare: Making black versions of originally white historical figures in Hollywood movies today
X Hypothesis matrix
|Event/claim/piece of evidence||Mainstream||Seneca||Gaia||Dr. Fomenko|
|Eruption of Vesuvius||79 AD||1631||1631||1631|
|Death of Pliny the Elder||79 AD||...||1482||...|
|Testimony by Pliny the Younger||79 AD||...||1631||...|
|Construction styles||"Roman" & reconstructions||...||Non-Roman;
the Roman era seems more like a fashion of the Renaissance time than a historical period
At least 4 construction styles recognized;
A - round basalt cobbles with cement
B - horizontal "tile bricks" with other methods
C - angular limestone (?) clasts in wall
D - crazy columns
|Excavation history||1709+||...||1709-38 (faking the whole Roman shebang)
1738-48 (promoting the thing; Maurice)
1780s? (adding erotic art and other things)
1865+ (faking more under Unified Italy)
1923-43 (faking more to promote the Roman Empire narrative by Mussolini)
1944 (faking even more by "reconstruction" after WWII bombings)
1950s (matching the "Roman" finds in London; see Bloomberg tablets and 1946 - Dead Sea Scrolls)
21st century (faking more and more)
|"Roman" or not?||yes||?||no||no|
|Further research||1 - Geologic comparison of "79" and 1631 eruptions|
2 - Wider scope of the "Roman" era
3 - Dr. Fomenko's views
4 - When was the erotic art added and under whom?
- FAC 611 - "Hidden Histories"
- 2010 - Bloomberg tablets
- 1912 - Voynich manuscript
- 1904 - Stonehenge
- 1513 - Piri Reis map
- Anatoly Fomenko
- Senatore et al., 2016, p.9
- Senatore et al., 2016, p.12
- Valvemagazine - Ancient Valves
- World Archeology - Herculaneum
- Pompeisites.org - A third thoroughbred with an elaborate military harness has been discovered in the stable of Civita Giuliana
- livescience.com - Pompeii horse found
- express.co.uk – Discovered: ancient remains of roman horse
- livescience.com - Pompeii horse found still wearing harness
- HerculaneuminPictures - old maps bay of naples
- Pompeii Sites - History of Excavation
- MTU - 1631 Vesuvius eruption
- Three Graces paintings
- MET - artwork
- Flickr - Pineapple in Pompeii
- USGS - Aerosols
- Wiley - Fish
- Pompeii Sites - Cartella
Bibliography and further reading
- 2016 - Larsson & Larsson - 50 - Astronomical dating of Roman time
- 2010 - Buontempo et al. - 07 - Perspectives for the Radiography of Mt. Vesuvius by cosmic ray muons
- 2016 - Fei - 12 - 1600 AD Huaynaputina Eruption Peru - Abrupt Cooling and Epidemics in China and Korea
- 1998 - De Silva - 05 - Global influence of the AD 1600 eruption of Huaynaputina Peru
- 2016 - Senatore et al. - 20 - The Water Supply System of Ancient Pompeii (Southern Italy): From Resource to Geohazard
- 2007 - Scandone & Giacomelli - 10 - Precursors of eruptions at Vesuvius
- 2000 - Arrighi et al. - 02 - Violent strombolian and subplinian eruptions at Vesuvius
- 2019 - Hurley & Murray - 78 - Antiquity
- 2017 - Juliana Nicole van Roggen - 35 - Urban planning & cultural identity in Pompeii - from the Altstadt to Vitrivius
- 2017 - Velo Gala & Garriguet Mata - 18 - Roman window glass - an approach to its study through iconography
- 2012 - Viitanen & Ynnilä - 15 - Patrons and Clients in Roman Pompeii - Social control in the cityscape
- 2009 - Lynne Lancaster - 28 - Roman engineering and construction
- 2008 - Lare Özgenel - 25 - A tale of two cities - in search for ancient Pompeii & Herculaneum
- 2008 - Stephan Mols - 16 - Ancient Roman household furniture and its use - from Herculaneum to the Rhine
- Andrew Wallace Hadrill - 14 - Pompeian identities - between Oscan Samnite Greek Roman and Pun
- YouTube - History: Fiction or Science? (reading) part 1
- 2012 - A.T. Fomenko & G.V. Nosovskiy - 485 - How It Was In Reality
- 1992 - Fomenko, Kalashnikov & Nosovsky - 18 - The Dating of Ptolemy's Almagest
- 1989 - Fomenko, Kalashnikov & Nosovsky - 27 - Ptolemy's Almagest