V1 and V2 rockets – hoax?

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This topic contains 33 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  xileffilex 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #432616

    xileffilex
    Participant

    A fascinating thread was started at CF by Reichstag Fireman which hasn’t quite died there yet
    http://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1435&start=60

    Not sure where this subject belongs – not quite space, not quite a hoax, it’s old suspicious media…

    The Morgile has made a video on the New Mexico V2 test in 1946 and pulled apart the narrative

    More recently [2014] uploaded footage is here:

    The launch shots are taken from different viewpoints, but the footage in both coincidentally fades out at 9 seconds.

    65 miles up [Morgile video] @0.56:

    “The horizon, 720 miles away and the curvature of the earth are astonishingly apparent in this still picture from the film”

    From a researcher in London:
    http://londonist.com/2009/01/london_v2_rocket_sitesmapped

    12 January 2009 | Maps | By: M@
    London V2 Rocket Sites…Mapped

    Autumn 1944, and London was under attack from space. Hitler’s ‘vengeance’ rocket, the V-2, was the world’s first ballistic missile, and the first man-made object to make a sub-orbital spaceflight.
    Over 1400 were launched at Britain, with more than 500 striking London. Each hit caused devastation. The 13 tonne rocket impacted at over 3000 miles per hour. There was no warning; the missile descended faster than the speed of sound and survivors would only hear the approach and sonic booms after the blast.

    So, where did they all go? Where did the 900 land which did not hit London.
    And how does this square with the map?
    interesting outliers – Whitstable, Acle [Norfolk] Chelmsford, Luton.

    Henry Road, Chelmsford
    description
    December 19, 1944, 39 dead.

    right next to a large ball bearing factory….
    [The Essex Chronicle link on the page is dead]

    Biscot Road, Luton
    description
    Based on eyewitness report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/83/a8099283.shtml

    From Clive Irving: I just found your V2 site map, and I have something to add to the note on the rocket that landed in Biscot Road, Luton. The striking thing about the map is that this single V2 strike is so isolated from the rest, and must have been a very lucky hit because it had a material affect on the war effort. The V2 hit in mid-morning while I was in the fourth form classroom at Luton Grammar School, which was three miles away. Within an hour we were told that the Commer lorry works was badly damaged. My father worked there. Later that day he told the story of what happened – the worst damage was in the canteen. My father was on the other side of a wall, on the works floor, where there was significant blast damage but no casualties. There were body parts in the trees outside, I don’t know the exact number killed. At this time in 1944 the Commer works was still turning out vehicles for the expeditionary force then fighting its way to Germany. Full production was resumed within a week, but the V2 left a terrifying memory of unheralded death from above. PS My wife Mimi was on the receiving end of both V weapons. On August 2 1944 her home in Troutbeck Road, New Cross, was destroyed by a V1 at 6.31 am. The family were in a shelter in the garden and presumed dead by the rescue workers, but they were all alive. Four people in the house next door died. Then Mimi lost friends in the dreadful V2 strike on the Woolworths in Deptford one Saturday morning – Mimi wrote a piece about this for the Daily Mail some years ago. We’ve been looking at the available accounts on line prompted by D-Day because on that day we blissfully assumed that the war was over for us. Fat chance.

    So, two of the four outliers landed in factories associated, in all probablility with the war effort. What are the odds?

    from the Londonist again:

    some 9000 Londoners lost their lives to the V-2. As with the Blitz, South and East London took the brunt of the onslaught, with Woolwich, Ilford, Barking, Greenwich and West Ham each receiving over 20 hits. Some did make it into the central areas, however. V-2 explosions devastated Selfridges, Speakers’ Corner and Holborn. That isolated Caffe Nero near the mural on Tottenham Court Road stands on the still-undeveloped site of a blast that killed nine. More seriously, 110 people were slaughtered at Farringdon when a rocket hit a packed market building on 8 March 1945. The worst death toll of all came on 25 November 1944, when 168 people lost their lives after a direct hit on Woolworths in New Cross.

    These famous tragedies are well documented, but over 500 rocket strikes, many with significant death toll, remain obscure. We’ve mapped out some of the impact sites above, with more to follow when we can access further information.

    Why obscure?

    Records for the area then-governed by the London County Council (LCC) are most readily available thanks to Flickr uploads of war damage maps by Yersinia (see also the London at War group)

    Erm, these were all taken down. However, I see that a book has very recently been published:

    The London County Council Bomb Damage Maps 1939-1945

    Laurence Ward
    Price – GBP 48

    A map of the West End of London showing bomb damage includes one alleged V2 strike just north of Oxford street [Tottenham Court Road is not visible on this map]
    http://www.westendatwar.org.uk/page_id__99_path__0p2p.aspx

    source: http://www.westendatwar.org.uk/images/uploaded/originals/Medium_sized_bomb_map.jpg

    • This topic was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by  xileffilex.
    #432652

    xileffilex
    Participant

    One small clue emerges immediately:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/35/a7607135.shtml
    archived here:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20110128182042/http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/35/a7607135.shtml

    witness: Mr Barnabus and his brother
    Location of story:
    Acle, Great Yarmouth, Norfolk
    Background to story:
    Civilian
    Article ID:
    A7607135

    I have always been a bit mystified by a particular incident in my young life,the which, although it is true had no particular significance, or indeed had any lasting effect upon me, has, nevertheless left me wondering if it really happened at all, or was this perhaps only something my youthful imagination had dreamed up….

    That is until a few days ago, I picked up a copy of the *EDP’Sunday'(25th Sept 2004) recounting the advent of Hitler’s V2’s, in the autumn of 1944

    As I remember it, my brother and I had set out on what,I at least,considered to be a rather daring cycle ride from Yarmouth to the city of Norwich twenty miles distant…..

    What was our suprise, soon after leaving Acle, ahead of us we could make out some large lorries and a crowd of workmen, then, getting closer, adjacent to a short belt of trees, we realised they were busy filling in, what I seem to remember as an absolutely enormous hole, which, having removed a section of the roadway,it continued into the field beyond. Quite facinated by this huge crater, we knew, somehow, that this was something different to what the usual bombs accomplished, having seen at close hand a lot of the local Yarmouth bomb and incendiary damage.
    And also the areas of damage that the V1’s were shown to make, when they landed.

    Probably the appearence of two schoolboys turning up on well-worn bicycles came as a bit of a diversion, for we were promptly surrounded by a number of grave faced workmen and supervisors who informed us we had no right to be there in the first place, and in any case, it was quite impossible to get by at all, and therefore we would have to go back.

    This of course was seen as a challenge, however, as was usual in the circumstances, we humbly agreed and turned around to cycle back again as sensibly advised . . .

    i.e. nothing to see son, move along please…

    Yet we never had anyone accept our account, or ever heard anyone mention this event occuring so close to Acle, well, that is until picking up the *EDP’Sunday’ a few days ago.

    I estimate this to be at Grid Ref. TG408103.

    which is somewhere on the north side of the A47 road the middle of this map segment
    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.6366182,1.5568238,255m/data=!3m1!1e3

    And an outlier not listed on the map in the OP, not far from Acle…

    http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/they_came_from_outer_space_1_494986
    26 June 2008

    one V2 plunged into a field and injured six people at Valley Farm, Hopton, on the coast side of the A12 not far from the Gorleston boundary.

    How much metal would have landed?
    This much [from 0.58 to 2.35 here….]

    #432653

    xileffilex
    Participant

    Were these craters little more than shanksville style events?

    The Dick turpin pub …
    http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/historic_dick_turpin_name_restored_at_newbury_park_restaurant_1_1069742?usurv=completed

    before:

    today:

    The present building, which dates from 1912, was damaged in 1944 by a V2 rocket but parts of the structure survive to this day.

    Memories…

    http://www.williamtorbitt.co.uk/wartime_memories.asp

    The Scots Guards where stationed in Abury House and some new houses that were not occupied in Aldborough Road, they used to parade and march up and down Aldborough Road, and have dances and socials in St. Peter’s church hall. There were a few local bomb incidents and the V2 rocket that came down in front of the Dick Turpin pub that killed Mr.Perkins and I believe some army officers who were out side at the time talking to him to arrange a party for that evening.

    From Mavis Nelson:
    I read on a previous message that it was Roy Perkins who was killed when the V2 fell on the Dick Turpin – in actual fact it was Phil Perkins, Roy’s brother, and when it was rebuilt Roy Perkins took over as governor of the Dick Turpin for many years.

    The war unnerved all the children. I stayed home in Ilford until 1944 when I went up th Doncaster for a while, when the Doodle bugs started, but came home the day the first V2 fell.
    ………….Seven Kings Park was made over to allottments and I remember watching a V1 from behind a compost heap as its engine cut out and we waited to see if it would drop straight down or glide on, it took the latter course and went on toward Barkingside before exploding. The two houses next to the park were taken out by a V2, I think there were fatalities. At school we had to sit in the corridors, with our gasmasks, when the siren went.

    from Terence Wright:
    I believe it was a Saturday morning that the pub took a near hit from the V2. I was in the bath at the time, and the strange swishing sound caused me to submerge–quickly! I sensed something unusual was happening. Even as far away as Aldborough Road, where we lived, across from the park, the explosion gave our house, already damaged, a good shaking. Later, when we got word of the damage to the pub, my mother and aunt were reduced to tears. You see, Mr. Perkins kept the pub open, along with the piano player, even if there was no beer. Also, he let the RAF personnel run up a tab. Sometimes they never got back to pay.

    from -no name supplied

    …and here’s a memory from someone who actually saw the Dick Turpin blown up by a V2 rocket in November 1944.

    My mother was with my sister and brother outside Thompsons talking to a lady who was with her sons, one in a pram. One of the boys, looking idly up Aldborough Road towards St Peters, suddenly shouted out “what’s that”, or something to that effect. What he had seen, and what I saw for the first time in my life, was a vapour trail, and it was coming across the sky in an arc from right to left, from the direction of Hainault towards Newbury Park, quite fast, and then suddenly curving sharply downwards.

    My mother grabbed me and my brother and our heads were thrust into the pram for ‘protection’ … whoooooooffffff …. a tremendous shock blast came right down Aldborough Road and rocked us and we looked up to see an enormous dust plume climbing into the sky from beyond the Church. It was a V2 (flying supersonically and silently in the upper/lower atmosphere) and it landed in front of the Dick Turpin blowing the entire front and roof off. They subsequently changed the shape of the roof and front when it was re-built. At that time I seem to remember that it had multiple tall brick chimneys, although I haven’t ever seen a picture of the pub as it used to be.

    Roy Perkins the publican was killed, as was an airman cycling past the Dick Turpin on his way back to the Airfield. My sister, to this day, remembers seeing the airman cycle past Thompsons while we were standing there talking. [The Roy Perkins who was killed was the father of the Roy Perkins who was later to became ‘mine host’ at the Dick Turpin]

    Hmmmm

    #432656

    xileffilex
    Participant

    Ernest Philip Orwell Perkins, aka Philip Ernest Orwell aka Ernest Philip Orwell [!] of the Dick Turpin Hotel, Aldborough Hatch, Ilford, Essex
    died 18 November 1944
    Administration (with will) Llandudno 24 March 1945 to Drusilla [sic] Kate Horwood, spinster. Effects £3751 5s 4d

    Born 1901 as EPO Perkins
    *Drucilla Kate Horwood [sic] born Romford 1896 died 1978 aged 81, of Hatch Arundell, Loddiswell, Devon

    #433423

    xileffilex
    Participant

    http://www.wrsonline.co.uk/big-ben-rocket-strikes/v2-strikes-casualties/
    This link provides 2,637 entries, each one a death at various numbered locations caused by V2 rockets landing.

    The accuracy of these rockets seems uncanny. Let’s look more closely at the above Dick Turpin incident, #207 plus other outliers #172 at Nazeing and 235 at near Southend.
    For a start the Leading Aircraftman alleged to have been cycling past the Dick Turpin when the V2 is said to have landed does not appear in the list above.

    He was William George Skeet, aged 40. There was no probate associated with him.
    His family was Alice Skeet, said to be of Hayle, Cornwall and three children Denys P, and twins Clifford O.G and William A.G who would have been about 20 and 15 respectively at the time. Skeet’s war grave in nearby Barkingside is seen here:
    http://www.smartin67.freeserve.co.uk/cem.htm

    http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=54146296

    Killed by a flying bomb outside the Dick Turpin Hotel,
    Aldborough Road North, whilst talking to Phil Perkins

    Perkins is buried in St Peter’s churchyard, Aldborough Hatch.
    http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=54145513
    son of E.E. Perkins
    Strangely named, colloquially as Phil on the grave, rather than Ernest or Ernest Philip.

    His brother Roy is stated to have died on November 18 1985 aged 76,[amazingly the same day as the alleged V2 strike!]although he was born and died as Kenneth Roy Perkins in 1909.

    Extraordinarily for a publican, “Phil” is found as a passenger for Naples, departing on November 14 1938,in the company of his executor, Drucilla Kate Horwood, secretary, [and also on Kate’s ticket one Clarice May Carr of 90 Eton Rise, Hampstead, NW3] of what reads like 20 Aberry Gardens, Aldborough Hatch but may well be Abridge Gardens off Lodge Lane, Romford. The ship, the Hakozaki Maru was bound for Yokohama.
    Miss Horwood also turns up on passenger lists in Honolulu, Hawaii crossing the pacific between North America and Australasia, first class from Vancouver, in November 1948 on the RMMI Aorangi and returning in Spring 1950 from Sydney to San Francisco on the SS Lakemba with two trunks, two suitcases and one hat box. Very well travelled… her brother had moved to Australia, Townsville, Queensland before the first world war, where he was a labourer before enlisting in 1915.
    https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=143626

    Oh yes, “Phil” Perkins was an Air Raid Warden according to the list.

    Re the Dick Turpin…
    https://www2.redbridge.gov.uk/cms/planning_and_the_environment/planning_policy__regeneration/inward_investment__enterprise/idoc.ashx

    The pub began as a humble beerhouse occupying
    one of the cottages of Aldborough Hall Farm (2), selling ales produced
    at Mann Crossman & Paulin’s Albion Brewery in Whitechapel. The pub
    moved into a handsome purpose-built brick building facing the main road
    in the 1910s, and this in turn was replaced by a modern building following
    a v2 rocket impact in 1944. It is this ‘roadhouse-style’ pub that stands on
    the site today, still operating as a pub and restaurant.

    There are no online photos of the damage.
    Joseph Horwood, the father of Drucilla died aged 88 in 1934, living at 1 The Double House, Aldborough Hatch, effects £25,551,16s 10d – a tidy sum.

    A George Frederick Barker of the Double House was killed in the First World War
    Famous Labour politician George Lansbury lived at the Double House in Aldborough Hatch.
    http://genpals.co.uk/blog/aldborough-hatch-the-village-in-the-suburbs-a-history/

    Coming – the incident at Tatsfield Cottages, Nazeing.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by  xileffilex.
    #433983
    psyopticon
    psyopticon
    Participant

    Great sleuthing, Felix! You’ve unearthed a huge amount of conflicting information for just one alleged rocket-bomb attack. Lots will be silently enjoying and admiring your efforts at unravelling all of the anomalies and curiosities in just this one narrative!

    Just to compound the confusion over the publican’s name – more rabbit holes? – if we zoom in to the old photo of the Dick Turpin Pub before it was supposedly obliterated by the V2, we can certainly see the name PERKINS above the door. Yet the first name initials don’t look like ‘P’ for Philip, nor ‘E’ for Ernest, nor ‘O’ for Orwell. Nor ‘R’ for Roy! So perhaps they are initials for yet another Perkins?! A relative of Phil and Roy, maybe?!

    It’s a great discovery, too, that ‘Phil’ Perkins was an ARP officer. If the V1 and V2 were hoaxes; as Orwell puts it: orchestrated by the government of Oceania itself..”just to keep the people frightened” — and serving ultimately to disguise land-clearances and land-grabs — then ARP personnel had to be “in-on-it”.

    Though if ARP officer “Phil” Perkins truly was killed by a V2, then he was very unlucky. According to that list of dead, out of all the 2637 civilians reportedly killed by the V2, just 30 were ARP officers. An astonishingly low casualty rate, considering the risks they purportedly took, in the execution of their duties.

    Interesting too, that Perkins travelled extensively before the war, despite his modest background as a publican. His father was supposedly a publican, too. So it’s unlikely there was any great family wealth to fund such travel. Perhaps the Perkins just assumed the publican role temporarily, to pull off the V2 psyop, or as a back-story or official cover for their true activities?

    The Perkins’ link to the affluent Horwood family – with Miss Drucilla Kate Horwood acting as executor of Perkins’ will, and also his overseas travelling companion – is interesting, and curious. As is the Horwood’s family home; The Double House, Aldborough Hatch; earlier the home of a prominent Labour politician.

    Could the House perhaps be ‘fondi-owned‘ as LaRouche dubs them? Another pooled asset, like many other country homes, of the oligarchy? Like Chequers, Dorneywood and Chevening, and many other lesser-known houses; acquired as private retreats for the benefit of those in politics and intelligence? Used for secure maildrops for correspondence to and from sims, and other hoaxes?

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by psyopticon psyopticon.
    #434342

    xileffilex
    Participant

    Yet the first name initials don’t look like ‘P’ for Philip, nor ‘E’ for Ernest, nor ‘O’ for Orwell. Nor ‘R’ for Roy! So perhaps they are initials for yet another Perkins?!

    Psy – the findagrave link states EE Perkins was the father.
    Ernest Edward Perkins of the Dick Turpin Hotel died 2 May 1941 at Maycroft Nursing Home, South Woodford. Administration with will to Elizabeth Perkins, widow. [nee Lamb] Effects £4411 9s 1d Age 62 years
    [Mrs P may have died in 1965 at Mundesley aged 88]

    More to come on some of these events. With so many events, such accuracy there is hardly any evidence of a V2 rocket’s existence, except, in 2012…to great media fanfare…[which completely passed me by at the time]

    source, eg.
    http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/story/2012-03-30/v2-rocket-remains-found-in-essex/

    “confirmed as a V2”
    It reminds me of those pieces of plane or helicopter “wreckage” being hoisted high by crane for the news gatherers. Harwich Yacht Club members “always knew” that the V2 was there.


    http://uxoinfo.com/blogcfc/client/index.cfm/2012/4/10/WWI-Era-German-V2-Rocket-Used-As-a-Boat-Mooring

    Suuffolk, United Kingdom Local boaters off the Harwich Coast between Felixstowe and Harwich have reportedly known about an old WWII era German V2 rocket embedded nose down in the mud flats 600 feet from shore. Boaters in the area have even been known to moor their boats to it. It’s unclear why the rocket was never officially reported to the police but nearly 67-years after being fired, a Royal Navy bomb disposal team from Portsmouth responded to investigate the suspect rocket.

    LOL!

    Actually, Reuben Day, or Dace allegedly told the cops 68 years ago…

    So when great-grandfather Reuben Day, 82, saw one of Hitler’s terrifying V-2 rockets falling just off the coast of East Anglia he informed the police straight away.

    But despite Mr Day, then a teenage fishermen, showing police the unexploded rocket lying in the mud – it remained there largely undisturbed for 68 years.

    Mr Day had been working as a young fisherman and had gone to pick up some fish when he heard a ‘terrific explosion’ overhead.
    When he thought there was no longer a risk of flying shrapnel, he went outside and saw two clouds of black and white smoke and a white vapour trail coming out of the sky.

    Father-of-seven Mr Day added: ‘I then heard a whooshing sound like a tube train and found out this rocket had landed. A fisherman who was in a boat was nearly swamped by it.

    ‘I took a policeman out in a boat to investigate the next day, but he fell backwards into the mud and I had to drag him out and recover his boots.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2122370/They-V2-Pensioner-told-police-saw-Hitlers-rocket-drop-sea-vindicated-warhead-intact-mudfield.html

    LOL! Hmmmmm…

    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140905-the-nazis-space-age-rocket
    September 8 2014
    This week marks the 70th anniversary of the first V2 rocket attack on London. As our space correspondent Richard Hollingham discovers, the legacy of the missile lives on in today’s spacecraft.

    “It’s something that’s often glossed over, but shouldn’t be,” says Doug Millard, space historian and curator of space technology at London’s Science Museum, where a V2 takes pride of place in the main exhibition hall.

    Just like the dinosaur in the nearby Natural History Museum….

    #435260
    psyopticon
    psyopticon
    Participant

    Below, the press coverage on the V2 from The Times (London) in 1944 and 1945. Surprisingly few articles; suggesting the V2 gained true notoriety only after War in Europe was over (May 1945)

    First announcement of the V2 (“the new menace”) in a statement from Churchill, published 11.11.44 (Armistice Day)

    The first damage photos; proof the V2 is very real:

    Three eyewitness accounts; further proof the V2 exists:

    The first damage reports; very vague; no identified places or people:

    An update on the new “V-weapons” (last paragraph predicts rocketry will be the next big thing, in war or peace):

    Second of just two V2 damage reports. Again no locations or identities given; psyop behind smokescreen of wartime censorship?

    War now over; a Dutchman with his eyewitness report of the V2

    The absorption of Nazi rocket science by the victorious Allies; Project Paperclip et. al, and a hat-tip to the Nookular Hoax-to-be!

    null

    And that is the sum total – so far as I can see – of all The Times’ articles about the V2, published during and immediately after WWII.

    Very much a weapon-of-terror manufactured after the event.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by psyopticon psyopticon.
    #436473

    xileffilex
    Participant

    Thanks Psyopticon for those copies. There ought to have been tons and tons of parts of V2 rocket metal scattered around.
    There is a very complete looking list of all launches here
    http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/timeline.html
    from which I will try to extract some relevant information relating to London and especially the area to the east of it.

    One small interim correction – Elizabeth Perkins died 21 March 1950 aged 72 is inscrbed on the grave
    “our dear mother” our??
    Also curious wording: “my dear husband Ern E Perkins
    However, we read in the probate records…

    “Elizabeth Perkins of the Dick Turpin Hotel, Aldborough Hatch, widow,died 20 March 1950 at Mariners Cottage, Felixstowe Ferry, Suffolk . Probate to Kenneth Roy Perkins, licensed victualler. Effects £766 15s.

    Her age is given as 74, not 72 in the BMD records

    Who else lived at Mariners Cottage? Certainly Air Commodore David Willia Frederick BONHAM-CARTER did in 1974 when he died. As indeed did
    Captain Norman Ffolliott Wells OBE [1876 – 1946] of the Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve. [probate to Maude Caroline Wells, widow – actually it’s Margaret C Wells, 1889- 1970 but no matter]

    All very interesting.

    I also came across by accident this incident [and background material]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Overseas_Reception_Board
    http://www.london-medals.co.uk/index.php?route=blog/post&post_id=29
    http://www.derbysulzers.com/shiprangitki.html
    Another one to sway opinion with an unlikely hero singled out and honoured. I might need to expand on it also.

    #437365

    xileffilex
    Participant

    There are some interesting photographs in this book

    which is incompletely available online.
    Disarming Hitler’s V Weapons Bomb Disposal – The V1 & V2 Rockets
    by Chris Ransted pp 260 [2013] ISBN: 9781781593868

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BZFABAAAQBAJ&pg=PT76
    et seq
    Note that the very first people on the scene of one of the very first two alleged V2 sites were from the bomb squad [fell in Parndon Wood. Slight damage to two cottages – the other was the well known 8 Staveley Road, Chiswick site].

    A crater in a field, 20 ft across, 8 feet deep …no large lumps..lots and lots of small fragments of metal…a certain amount of heavy stuff.. but not a lot of it..not [an] ordinary bomb…something out of the ordinary..

    Similary, first on the scene of another rural Essex site, Magdalen Laver, only a few miles from Parndon Wood, both near to North Weald Airfield [hum….] once again was the bomb disposal squad.

    “few working parts…a cluster of laminated tinfoil leaves possibly insulated by thin leaves of mica. Numerous portions of insulated wire were found in the crater ..some parts were much colder than the soil…a civilian who had touched some of the parts shortly after the missile [alleged] fell found that some parts were too cold to handle. Specimens recovered were sent to RAE Farnborough for further analysis.

    It all sounds a little Twilight Zone-ish.
    From v2rocket.com:

    Fell on farm meadow. Moderate damage to a village hall and minor damage to five farmhouses, a school, a rectory, a public house, five dwelling houses and a plant nursery. There are indications that the rocket disintegrated before impact.

    [my comments in brackets]

    The author tells us that concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide can set fire to wood, grass, leather..
    ho ho.
    A lot of these V2s seem to be falling in the Essex countryside, NorthEast of London
    The combustion chamber allgedly found on November 20 was too hot to handle, rather than too cold.
    The author copies the first newspaper reports from 10 November 1944.
    Conveniently there were very few unexploded V2s until March 1945 when there were two prominent photo- shoots [usual fuzzy images] at near Foulness [another military area] and Hutton. Once again, no prying eyes for these unexploded rockets in rural locations.All nicely sealed off for the photoshoot, the only named witnesses being military and government agents.

    “a spaghetti of wires”

    The Harwich incident, said to be an airburst at 1200 ft is covered as a recent news item

    A lot of rockets seem to have landed in the marshy coast around Burnham, Essex

    One imagines that people were urged to hand over any pieces of metal to the military – just as nowadays they are coaxed out of any unhelpful video or photographic imagery before it ends up online. It seems extra ordinary how little metal has survived.
    14 tons on takeoff..impact speed thrice that of sound – more than 1000 m/sec
    http://www.v2rocket.com/start/makeup/design.html
    Empty weight – 4,539 kg ; 12,700 kg on launch

    So 4,5 tonnes of metal embedded itself in the back garden of number 45 Northumberland Gardens, Horchurch…[no mention of neighbouring properties] But no, it was only the warhead, after breaking up in the air. March 20 1945. So where did the rest of it go to?

    Warhead: 1,627 lb of explosives, 738 kg

    V-2 rocket fired, impacted Hornchurch. Warhead unexploded.

    One only has to look at the number of alleged events per day in 1945 to estimate the amount of metal landing around London yet so little survive.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by  xileffilex.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 9 months ago by  xileffilex.
    #441048

    xileffilex
    Participant

    As promised, a closer look at incident 172, Nazeing, Essex, north of London almost on the Greenwich meridian.

    A witness here mentions it [yes, November 12 1944 was a Sunday], one Joyce Martin-Gutkowska [died February 2014]
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/64/a2032264.shtml

    November 12 2003

    one Sunday morning in early autumn in 1944 that he [her father] was home when the V2 dropped less than a mile away. He dashed off to render what help he could. I think that the shock of what he found was a factor in his developing soon afterwards severe pneumonia from which he never fully recovered, dying of emphysema in April 1953.

    hmmm
    Sure enough, here’s the memorial at All Saints Church, Nazeing


    source: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=47665934

    The Burial Register records:”Includes burials (numbers 252-260) on 16 November 1944 of 10 persons ‘killed by enemy action on Sunday, Nov. 12’, when ‘A rocket fell on St. Leonard’s Rd.”
    Inquests held at Epping.

    Victims were:

    Amelia Helen Florence Green,aged 35-killed at her home,
    3 Tatsfield Cottages, St. Leonard’s Road, Nazeing. Daughter of Mr. Green, of 22 Swanfield Road, Waltham Cross, Hertfordshire.

    David Edward George King,aged 7-killed at Nazeing. Resident of 88 Saxone Road, Bow, London. Son of William George Francis King. His brother, William George King also perished.

    William George King,aged 12-killed at Nazeing.
    Resident of 88 Saxone Road, Bow, London. Son of William George Francis King. His brother, David Edward George King also perished.

    George William Lucas,aged 20, killed at his home,2 Tatsfield Cottages, St. Leonard’s Road, Nazeing. Son of Kate Lilian Lucas, and his sister, Ruby Gladys Lucas also perished in this incident. His father was Thomas George Lucas.

    Kate Lilian Lucas aged 44, killed at her home,2 Tatsfield Cottages, St. Leonard’s Road, Nazeing. Wife of Thomas George Lucas.Her son George William Lucas, and daughter,Ruby Gladys Lucas were also killed in this incident.

    Ruby Gladys Lucas,aged 12, killed at her home 2 Tatsfield Cottages, St. Leonard’s Road, Nazeing along with her brother and mother.Her father was Thomas George Lucas.

    Ada Rachel Merrifield,aged 71.Member of the Women’s Voluntary Service (W.V.S.);killed at her home, 1 Tatsfield Cottages, St. Leonard’s Road, Nazeing. Widow of Henry Merrifield.

    Charles James Newton,aged 42 Air Raid Warden; of Hill-View, St. Leonard’s Road, Nazeing. Son of the late James and Amelia Newton, of 85 Swanfield Road, Waltham Cross; husband of Doris Mary Newton. Died at St. Leonard’s Road.

    Basil Leslie Rumsey,aged 10, killed at his home “Lynton”, St. Leonard’s Road, Nazeing. Son of Leslie and Kathleen Cardew Rumsey.

    John Henry Weare,aged 9.Son of Frederick George and Helen Annie Weare, of The Crooked Billet, Nazeing. Died at The Crooked Billet.

    So what of the SEVEN seriously injured in the incident? There is no inormation available.

    Death regsters giver the age of Kate Lucas as 43, not 44.

    Was unmarried Kate Green, 35, living alone at 3 Tatsfield Cottages?

    The deaths of the King brothers are not registered in Epping, where they ought to have been:
    David H King and Willim G King – registered Hertford, ref. 3a 1108
    , but David H King – another suspicious error, compunded by the seeming absence of reason for them being in Nazeing, especially when living in East London and no exact location given for their deaths]

    The death of Ruby Lucas [12] was registered in Ware, ref 3a 1004
    Ada Merrifield also has her death registered in Ware, under the same reference , but her age is given as 72, which will appear on the death certificate.
    All very curious for an incident at one location, with inquests in Epping. What of the families? That two were living in the same street several miles away in Waltham Cross is highly unusual.

    notes:
    The road in Bow ought to be SAXON Road, not Saxone the houses of which were cleared away long ago. Their mother was Emily Jessie King, born Marney,1903.
    William G.F. King born 1901 [4] Mile End.
    An Emily Jesse King died at Littleport Grange Care Home, near Ely in 1993 with the right year of birth.
    The Kings had SIX children, between 1927 and 1942, the last being born in the Epping/Nazeing area, Patricia D.G. King. The others were Francis E, William G and Gloria M. There is no mention of these other children in connection with the V2 incident.
    William G.F.King died in 1981 [no probate]

    Henry J Merrifield [d.1936] = Ada [Rachael] Dexter 1920

    The Crooked Billet pub had been in the Weare family for 35 years


    The Weares were married in 1932, children Jean A and Harry J. the latter born 1935,the former = Clive H.A. Sinclair.
    source: http://pubshistory.com/EssexPubs/Nazeing/croobil.shtml

    Basil Rumsey had a sister, Jennifer C, born 1941,

    These are the images showing damage to a house. Is this possibly caused by a V2 rocket?

    source: http://www.walthamabbeyarchive.com/showphoto.php?function=view&photoid=383
    see also
    http://www.walthamabbeyarchive.com/showphoto.php?function=view&photoid=382

    http://www.walthamabbeyarchive.com/images_CMS/photos/381/1235942654_381_main.jpg

    #450452
    rgos
    rgos
    Participant

    Sometimes, as fakeologists, we overshoot the mark.

    Two stills from footage from the end of WW2 in Holland.

    From 37.50 in the video:

    http://www.npogeschiedenis.nl/andere-tijden/afleveringen/2014-2015/De-Bevrijding-in-iconische-beelden-.html

    #450511

    xileffilex
    Participant

    This Rijsterbos battery #444 at Middenleane [or Mirnserleane] wasn’t very good – not a single V2 [alleged] hit Norwich City centre. Most of them seemed to make craters in the middle of nowhere in East Anglia.
    http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/timeline.html
    http://www.astronautix.com/sites/v2bry444.htm

    As the war neared its end there was to be one more threat to the city as a number of German V2 rockets dropped near but fortunately not in the city. One came down on the Royal Norwich Golf Course at Hellesdon with debris strewn over a wide area and with a shallow crater of roughly 30 feet square adding to the Club‘s bunkers[ho ho]

    [October 3 1944]**
    http://www.heritagecity.org/research-centre/social-innovation/norwich-at-war.htm
    ** compare

    rocket fired, impacted in Norwich, much damage. The missile broke up over the Mile Cross housing-estate, Norwich, the war-head hit the Royal Norwich Golf Club, Hellesdon. 400 houses were damaged, and one person died..

    Whaaaaat??

    Although the war was ended another accident with a V-2 happened in Holten (Holland). On April 30, at the crossroads of Rijssenseweg/Markeloseweg a “Bomb Disposal Lorry” drove, that carried the highly explosive top of a V-2 rocket. Suddenly it exploded killing 6 people. One of the persons was sitting on the top of the rocket and nothing of him was found anymore. Near the castle De Waardenborch, there is still a monument to commemorate this accident



    The panel is a little difficult to read but don’t worry, Holten in 2014 has replaced it

    Nieuwe tekstpanelen over V2 raket bij Oudheidkamer Hoolt’n

    http://www.wo2actueel.nl/artikel/3508/Nieuwe-tekstpanelen-over-V2-raket-bij-Oudheidkamer-Hooltn.htm

    De slachtoffers waren Engelse Militairen en de 23 jarige Cornelia Lepelaar uit Leiden.

    http://www.royalengineersbombdisposal-eod.org.uk/harris.html
    Monument to 2156363 Driver John Edward Harris. 24 Bomb Disposal Company.Royal Engineers.

    Sapper L. Cotton, Corporal J.P. Coyne, Driver J.E. Harris, Sappers J.S. McWhinnie and G.E. Wareing also died at this incident. Killed when a V2 exploded inHolland. The unit when in UK was based at the Duke of Yorks Barracks, Chelsea.

    Which one was sitting on top of the rocket?
    I can’t find any contemporary photos of the damage.

    Monument to the first firing in Houffalize, Belgium

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by  xileffilex.
    #453219
    Tom Dalpra
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    I found this 1977 documentary quite interesting and amusing at times.
    We see the huge funding for a load of boys playing with their big toys.
    Sounds about right.
    12,000 ‘slaves’ were apparently killed during production.

    Though the actual missiles look ( to me) as if they were absolutely useless, what difference should that make in war?
    They were, in fact such a hyped-up ‘phantom’ ( at least to the military and the air force who funded them with millions of Marks ) , they’re still conning us with them today! We still regularly send an old Oberth design up to the ISS .

    The V1 attacks look credible enough. They were drones effectively weren’t they? Flying bombs. But the V2 attacks ? ”You couldn’t hear them’, ”The silent killers”…mmm…what do ya think ? I bet they hardly hit anything, just ditched in the sea like all rockets.
    Ha.

    Sometimes it seems like the bigger the bullshit the more likely people are to believe it…
    I think someone already said something like that…

    DalTampra

    #453955
    psyopticon
    psyopticon
    Participant

    TomDalpra wrote:

    The V1 attacks look credible enough. They were drones effectively weren’t they? Flying bombs.

    Well that’s the narrative.

    It seems most unlikely that over 70 years ago the Nazis had an auto-piloting technology so sophisticated that it could navigate a V1 across the Channel, landing it with ruthless precision on the slums of east London (slums that, conveniently, were just begging to be demolished).

    While being ever so careful never to overshoot the target, and strike Buckingham Palace, the Houses of Parliament, or any of the plush residences in London’s West End.

    Besides, if this V1 “drone” technology existed in 1940 – why didn’t it continue in peace-time, with new applications for it?

    The V1 doodlebug doesn’t, to me, look any more credible – no more real – than the V2 rocket bomb which supposedly followed.

    The V1 tragedy at the children’s home in Crockham, Kent in 1944 – “the single worst V1 attack of the whole war” – with a victim count of 30 – looks especially fake.

    If the British government was faking V1 attacks “just to keep people frightened” – then what credibility – what reality – to the V1 itself?

    http://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1435&start=45#p2389101

    #454005
    Tom Dalpra
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    It seems most unlikely that over 70 years ago the Nazis had an auto-piloting technology so sophisticated that it could navigate a V1 across the Channel, landing it with ruthless precision on the slums of east London (slums that, conveniently, were just begging to be demolished).

    Mmm, fair enough. Clarification appreciated as I ‘think out loud’. No doubt the capabilities were hyped, if not totally invented.
    The hype worked on me.
    The V1 flying bombs are the ones I’ve heard people, who survived the blitz, talk about.
    My old infants school head mistress ( whose house had apparently been demolished by German bombs in WarII ) talked about them over lunch, some 42 years ago. I was 6, but I remember her specifically talking about the flying bombs. She said they’d listen for the motor cutting out and wait for the explosion. That’s where I first learned about The V1, sitting there transfixed, eating custard, with the images in my mind.

    Of course, how would you be able to tell from an air raid shelter?

    The air raid is one guaranteed way to get people out of the way.

    With everyone scuttling underground and getting their heads down, you could pretty much do as you liked.

    DalTampra

    #454151

    xileffilex
    Participant

    If the British government was faking V1 attacks “just to keep people frightened” – then what credibility – what reality – to the V1 itself?

    There ought to have been tons and tons of metal parts dumped on South East England. The puzzling absence of dark [metallic] matter from all these incidents is in itself suspicious. All we see are craters in the ground an wrecked houses. Reminiscent, in fact, of all our favorite plane and helicopter crashes.

    Here is a site which has a few V1 and V2 trinkets for sale. Not exactly convincing of a sustained campaign of aerial bombing.
    http://spitfirespares.co.uk/Rockets%201.html

    V1 case – 16cm across [whatever across means here] from Wickford. Yours for GBP25! Sold to the man in the ARP warden’s hat in the corner!

    Some interesting photos there..eg this “unexploded V1” nestling nicely against the immaculately intact house for the fauxtographer:

    #454202

    xileffilex
    Participant

    I just noticed there are some photos embedded in the V2 rocket site:
    http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/timeline.html

    Sept. 17, (+/- 07.00 hours) – Battery 444, Walcheren, Serooskerke, Vrederust, V-2 rocket fired, impacted East Ham. Direct hit on houses. 6 Dead, 15 seriously injured. 4 Houses demolished. Large pieces of the rocket remains were taken to the East Ham police station. (*JP) Photo 1 Photo 2 Photo 3 Photo 4 Photo 5

    The links suggest it is St Stephen’s Road, E6.

    ello ello ello, what all this here then?

    http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/st-stephens-rd-sept-17-1944-a.jpg

    I must say the buildings look older and taller than those currently in and around St Stephens Road E6.

    original source:
    http://www.newhamstory.com/image/tid/1307?page=17

    From the Thompson collection of glass negatives of East Ham War damage. In Newham Heritage and Archives.

    21 pages x 12 images of war damage in this East London district, a fascinating documentation of wrecked buildings.

    Here’s one from January 27 1945, Green Street, East Ham – very wide area of destruction.

    or Boundary Road – those houses on the right are quite modern, 1930s, I guess

    There are actually 12 pages of V2 rocket photos from Newham Archives here
    http://www.newhamstory.com/taxonomy/term/1426

    These will need some looking at
    eg ths “rocket casing” which was used as a “wishing well and Rocketry” [whatever that is] in a back garden until 1982 and was “craned” over the house. How big is it?

    http://www.newhamstory.com/node/1709

    #493424

    xileffilex
    Participant

    The V1 attacks look credible enough. They were drones effectively weren’t they? Flying bombs.

    Well that’s the narrative.

    It seems most unlikely that over 70 years ago the Nazis had an auto-piloting technology so sophisticated that it could navigate a V1 across the Channel, landing it with ruthless precision on the slums of east London (slums that, conveniently, were just begging to be demolished).

    While being ever so careful never to overshoot the target, and strike Buckingham Palace, the Houses of Parliament, or any of the plush residences in London’s West End.

    Besides, if this V1 “drone” technology existed in 1940 – why didn’t it continue in peace-time, with new applications for it?

    The V1 doodlebug doesn’t, to me, look any more credible – no more real – than the V2 rocket bomb which supposedly followed.

    The V1 tragedy at the children’s home in Crockham, Kent in 1944 – “the single worst V1 attack of the whole war” – with a victim count of 30 – looks especially fake.

    If the British government was faking V1 attacks “just to keep people frightened” – then what credibility – what reality – to the V1 itself?

    http://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1435&start=45#p2389101

    To reinforce the point about the extraordinary pin-point accuracy of the V2 rocket which seemed to avoid the wealthy areas of London, this map shows it clearly
    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ll=51.57707%2C-0.037766&spn=0.074677%2C0.190544&t=m&oe=UTF8&msa=0&z=12&source=embed&ie=UTF8&mid=zrRJwnXeepqg.k97NVjPZOOy0
    When one clicks on the alleged sites, one frequently finds single-sourced reports, some of them arising many years later when someone’s memory, er, returns.
    The whole of the financial city of London is unscathed, bridges, transport hubs..just a convenient “strike” at Smithfield meat market.

    It’s interesting that Patricia “Hot Potatoes” Steere has found this line of research. @1:11:00 and 1:28:00

    See comments below the video on a sub-thread from JLB who seems genuinely sceptical about the V2 saga.
    With today’s hoaxes, it’s the duping, smirking “witnesses”, fishy videos and imagery, fanciful back-up stories and changing narratives which give the game away. With the V2, we have much less to go on, but the absence of rocket material at crash sites is the big red flag.

    An allegedly crashed V2 in the 1946 earth photography experiment is seen at 2.01 and 2.46 in this film

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by  xileffilex.
    #493671
    psyopticon
    psyopticon
    Participant

    With today’s hoaxes, it’s the duping, smirking “witnesses”, fishy videos and imagery, fanciful back-up stories and changing narratives which give the game away. With the V2, we have much less to go on, but the absence of rocket material at crash sites is the big red flag.

    We’ve got a decent offering of dodgy images on that v2rocket.com site. The site attributes its accuracy to a Mr John Pridige:

    Many thanks to the continuing efforts of John Pridige of the UK, who has checked and crossed referenced much of the existing info with new data. John has made many corrections and additions, and is responsible for the rapid growth and accuracy of this list.

    Unusual name. Presumably he’s this fellow — John Pridige, film director and writer, known for “Zeppelins Over London” (2009) which “tells the story of the World War 1 Zeppelin air raids on London.”

    Without wishing to jumble-up our fakery, the Zeppelins – and powered airships in general, including the Hindenburg – are an earlier, candidate hoax. A film director researching Zeppelin airships for a documentary, would find it difficult not to arrive at the same conclusion. Mr Pridige consequently comes out as a safe pair of hands to gatekeep the V2 legend.

    As for the imagery on v2rocket.com, much of it feels too modern; Photoshop-era cut-and-pasting.


    The focus and depth of field is all wrong in this one, supposedly showing damage from a V2 attack. The plump fellow on the right is reasonably in focus. Yet the brick and block wall to his right – much the same focal distance from the ‘camera’ – is very blurred. How could that focal anomaly occur, if not from cut-and-pasting?


    This feels like another fake image, comprised of multiple layers, too. A modern construction, using an actor as the military policeman. Self-conscious, helmet pulled down, head bowed, in an olde uniform borrowed from the local museum?

    The cop and ‘the contraption’ are very sharply in focus; but not the background. With perhaps only limited efforts at ‘normalising’ the definition levels across the whole image. Leaving unduly higher entropy, or signal energy, in the policeman and in ‘the contraption’. None of that high frequency pixel energy in the scene behind. Most apparent under error level analysis (ELA), particularly around the curled metal protrusion to the left of ‘the contraption’, where there is also a familiar ‘halo’, or ‘hum’ around it.

    Perhaps ‘the contraption’ could have benefitted from a ‘morphological erosion’, to smooth its edges, and remove the remaining traces of its previous background, before it was pasted into its new setting?

    And those twigs in the foreground – were they pasted on top, lending artificial scale to ‘the contraption’ when it was actually very small, and disguising a composite seam-line?

    This one’s odd, too. The debris pile doesn’t seem plausible.

    How could all those timbers – presumably structural timbers from the roofs and floors – end up like loose matchsticks, lying on top? There’s no evidence of any heavy lifting gear in use. No cranes, no bulldozers. So how would the debris come to be piled-up in such a heap of that shape and size?

    The motor vehicles in the foreground — helpfully lending age and war context to the image — perhaps disguise another composite seam-line to the image? The debris piles behind, another layer, and finally, the housing in the background, and the ‘damage’ added to it through intricate digital photoshop work?

    —-

    There is a permanent “cultural exhibition” in Liverpool to the damage the city suffered from enemy bombardment during WWII. In particular, photos of the evocative WWII “incendiary bomb damage” to St Luke’s, the infamous “Bombed Out Church”. A shell of a building, which stands prominently today at the top of Bold St. According to the BBC, one of the city’s “best loved landmarks” (?!) Located on a busy corner of Liverpool city centre; a depressing daily reminder of the city’s long sufferance in those dark war years.

    The church left totally unrepaired, lest the city should ever forget. Yet again, though, the contemporary imagery in the photo exhibition has all the hallmarks of modern-day fakery. To disguise perhaps that St Luke’s was arsoned from the ground? Set ablaze (ineffectively) by ‘enemies within’; creating a shrine-like symbol, a powerful focal point, upon which the city folk would rally in anger, and later, mourn in grief?

    Also perhaps noteworthy is how the bomb damage was so localised. St Luke’s itself reduced to a burnt-out shell. And yet surrounding homes – some quite exclusive – left completely unscathed. Hmm. Fancy that.

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About xileffilex

doubter of everything in the MSM - photojournalists especially. Especially interested in the David Kelly suicide psy-op, Diana faked crash, Boston Marathon hoax. Old man with time to read behind the headlines. Southern England

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