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Many of the Newham archive photos look suspiciously staged.
The images, were the context not stated, look like conventional demolition sites, the kind of which one might have witnessed in the 1960s in the UK as whole areas of 19th century housing were cleared to make way for modern system built estates.As I said there are 12 pages of images. Just a few more
Note how the crane is suspiciously in the photo – had it done the wrecking while everyone was evacuated?
Strone/Monega Roads. War damage. 26/7/44. (3) in the Manor Park area of London, E12.
Plenty to smile about, Wanstead Park Avenue E12, allegedly, except I can’t find any modern images of housing in this road which match the housing stock in the “glass negative”, the source of which seems to be meaner housing stock than in the solid early 1900s middle class dwellings of Wanstead Park Avenue. Conclusion – faked.
More from the same allegedly middle class street
Perhaps these are re-enactments from later post-war demolitions?
This image, allegedly from Harcourt Avenue, 1944, shows a terrace already sealed off after earlier damage – note the external chimney flues.
See also the standard “toasted car”, a theme still used today, in front of the White Horse pub – pavement immaculately cleaned up…
Front of White Horse pub still standing, while the back has been completely distroyed by the second bomb in three days. (see photo 1). This time 7 were killed, (six in the hotel itself) and 15 seriously injured and another 1,000 homes damaged. The present pub was built in 1965.
4
And we all love football, so why not bomb a football ground, but leave the flimsy metal railings [for spectators to lean on, undamaged]
These are general “bombing” damage images allegedly from 1944. Every one of them can be analysed at the site
http://www.newhamstory.com/taxonomy/term/1426?page=11In the early years of the Second World War the residents of Barnby Street were the victims of no less than seven air raid attacks, when incendiary (Incend) and high explosive (HE) bombs rained down on the houses in the residential street off West Ham Lane.
What terrible luck
More bad luck…
In the early hours of 1st February 1945 at 3:03 am, Hitler’s last weapon of terror, a V-2 Rocket, left a trail of death and destruction on the [same] sleeping street.
29 people lost their lives and 15 others were seriously injured. Houses were totally destroyed and the surrounding streets were severely bomb blasted.
“The missile landed in the road at the rear of West Ham Police Station which was on the corner of West Ham Lane and Barnby Street. Officers on duty, under an inspector, went to the scene and turned the headlights of police cars on the devastated houses. Searchlights were also rushed to the spot and Civil Defence rescue workers, aided by dogs, searched among the debris. The C.D. personnel were able to rescue many buried in the ruins. Some were seriously injured and there were others with slight casualties. Apart from a slight injury to a sergeant there were no casualties among the police.” – Stratford Express Newspaper, February 16, 1945.
Later that morning, Ted Carter, the Chief Warden at Waltham Holy Cross, who was the official photographer for Air Raid Precaution/Civil Defence – Group 7 arrived at West Ham
The crater was in the middle of the road, with the usual devastation all around. Small houses had vanished in a heap of brick dust and rubble..
CHINNICK James Henry – Fireman NFS at 50 Barnby Street (resident of Dagenham)
COPPOLO Thomas 33 48 Barnby Street
CROOK Florence 66, 39 Barnby Street
CURME Matilda 44 41 Barnby Street
CURME Dennis 13 41 Barnby Street
CURRIN Violet 37 43 Barnby Street
CURRIN June 12 43 Barnby Street
CURRIN Joan 10 43 Barnby Street
CURRIN Peter 9 43 Barnby Street
CURRIN Veronica 6 43 Barnby Street
DODKINS John 42 46 Barnby Street
DURRANT Evelyn 74 62 Barnby Street
DYSON Ena Victoria 36 45 Barnby Street
DYSON Jessie Ena 9 45 Barnby Street
DYSON David 4 45 Barnby Street
DYSON Carole 15m 45 Barnby Street
HARDY Elizabeth 51 60 Barnby Street
HARDY Frederick 56 60 Barnby Street
HOMEWOOD Thomas 63 50 Barnby Street
HOMEWOOD Matilda 54 50 Barnby Street
HOMEWOOD Victor 25 50 Barnby Street
HOMEWOOD Beatrice 23 50 Barnby Street
HOMEWOOD Ellen 15 50 Barnby Street
HORIGAN Miriam 53 52 Barnby Street
MOFFATT Lillian Miriam 48 62 Barnby Street
SANDERSON Peter John 12 37 Barnby Street
SHARP Alice Sarah 70 57 Barnby Street
SHARPEN Frances Ellen 43 58 Barnby Street
SHARPEN Florence 16 58 Barnby StreetSome reports state that 30 people were killed that night and local legend says that some bodies were never recovered from the ruins, but casualty figures are always tricky. The estimates were made from returns submitted by the Warden for the area. He or she had a list of everyone within his/her designated territory, mostly compiled by simply touring round and knocking on doors and recording what he/she was told. It certainly was the case that the initial report of casualties turned out to be incorrect. Supposedly unaccounted people turned up days’ later. Others reported as ‘with friends or family’ were later found dead in the rubble or simply vanished, presumed dead.
Indeed, one of the casualties, James Chinnick, is a bit of a puzzle. The CWGC Roll of Honour states: “Fireman, N.F.S. Husband of M. F. Chinnick, of 56 Brewood Road, Dagenham. Died at 50 Barnby Street”. Was he staying at Barnby Street and killed in the explosion or was he one of the rescue workers and killed whilst on duty at the disaster.
It seems like the fabrication of deaths was as easy as 1,2,3….29 in those times.
Unusual name. Presumably he’s this fellow — John Pridige, film director and writer, known for “Zeppelins Over London” (2009) which “tells the story of the World War 1 Zeppelin air raids on London.”
Without wishing to jumble-up our fakery, the Zeppelins – and powered airships in general, including the Hindenburg – are an earlier, candidate hoax. A film director researching Zeppelin airships for a documentary, would find it difficult not to arrive at the same conclusion. Mr Pridige consequently comes out as a safe pair of hands to gatekeep the V2 legend.
Looking at some images of damage in Lowestoft from Zeppelin raids, one is struck by how easily faked it could have been.
http://www.stedmundsburychronicle.co.uk/galleryww1/galleryww1page_05.htm
But see also this amazing bombardment from the sea – this street is several hundred yards inland from the sea…a great shot
This is 1916, the address 149 London Road South, Kirkley, Lowestoft; they later relocated to 178.
mapThe extra small hole in the brickwork of 147 is not visible in the postcard, just out of frame
But back to V2 rockets…
Here’s a fanciful story from March 1945
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/Britain_at_War_Readers__Memorie/3453153/Britain-at-War-V2-rocket-explosion-in-Hyde-Park.htmlThis was a report on one of the very few events to have been reported [hence a star on the impact map] in central/west London. It is merely heresay, emerging only in 2008
Early on the morning of Sunday 18th March 1945 I decided to visit relatives in the London area. My nearest Tube Station was Marble Arch where I bought a newspaper but instead of boarding the tube crossed over to Hyde Park to read the paper.
An American soldier sat next to me on the wooden chairs provided. We had hardly exchanged greetings when the V2 rocket exploded. I had no idea what it was but thought it was the end of the world.
When I became conscious I thought I was climbing out of a trench. Sections of my uniform were destroyed and I was bleeding badly also there was a constant nose [sic] in my ears. However I was aware of crowds approaching to help from Edgware Road, Oxford Street and Park Lane.
Ambulances were quickly on the scene and conveyed me and a number of others to St Mary’s hospital. This was the beginning of a six months stay for me in various hospitals before I was considered fit enough to rejoin my unit in London.
William Allan, GlasgowLOL!
Many of the Newham archive photos look suspiciously staged.
Dunno. Could be wrong, but they look more like photo fakes; if so when could they have been forged? 1940s or much later?
Strone/Monega Roads. War damage. 26/7/44. (3) in the Manor Park area of London, E12.Those timbers lying diagonally in the upstairs window. They don’t look like roof trusses, nor floor joists. And too heavy for roofing battens. At that height in the building, what are they supposed to be?
Plenty to smile about, Wanstead Park Avenue E12, allegedly, except I can’t find any modern images of housing in this road which match the housing stock in the “glass negative”, the source of which seems to be meaner housing stock than in the solid early 1900s middle class dwellings of Wanstead Park Avenue. Conclusion – faked.
Those four people, including two women, standing directly beneath a huge pile of debris, imminently about to collapse! Why not just stand safely on the nice clean footpath? Is it supposed to be their ruined home? As you say, they seem very casual about it all.
And what’s with the trees in those Wanstead Park Avenue bomb pics, of 19/7/44?…
Are they supposed to be intentionally pollarded? In mid-July? Or were all the leaves, twigs and smaller branches, ripped off in their entirety by the blast? Not a likely story.
More bad luck…
In the early hours of 1st February 1945 at 3:03 am, Hitler’s last weapon of terror, a V-2 Rocket, left a trail of death and destruction on the [same] sleeping street.
29 people lost their lives and 15 others were seriously injured. Houses were totally destroyed and the surrounding streets were severely bomb blasted.
“The missile landed in the road at the rear of West Ham Police Station which was on the corner of West Ham Lane and Barnby Street. Officers on duty, under an inspector, went to the scene and turned the headlights of police cars on the devastated houses. Searchlights were also rushed to the spot and Civil Defence rescue workers, aided by dogs, searched among the debris. The C.D. personnel were able to rescue many buried in the ruins. Some were seriously injured and there were others with slight casualties. Apart from a slight injury to a sergeant there were no casualties among the police.” – Stratford Express Newspaper, February 16, 1945.
That local rag isn’t in the British Library’s online archive. Modern-day falsification of news reports from the time? Encourage one war historian to falsify a newspaper reference, with all the others piling in to quote him?
Aside: the Liverpool Daily Post supposedly reported at the time on the 1941 bombing of Liverpool St Luke’s (“The Bombed Out Church”). At least, that’s what the press claims today – quoting what the Post supposedly reported on the bombing back in 1941. Yet couldn’t find a single contemporary reference in any newspaper from the time. There’s a 1983 “reprint” supposedly of a “1943” Daily Post insert (“Bombers Over Merseyside – This was Merseyside’s ‘Finest Hour’“) but nothing back then about the bombing in the Post itself. Earliest reference I could find was 1946 in The London Times.
Searching other local newspapers for that West Ham Lane / Barnby St V2 attack draws a blank as well. Major event – 29 dead – reported, we’re told, in one newspaper, why wouldn’t others report it, too?
Later that morning, Ted Carter, the Chief Warden at Waltham Holy Cross, who was the official photographer for Air Raid Precaution/Civil Defence – Group 7 arrived at West Ham
..
The crater was in the middle of the road, with the usual devastation all around. Small houses had vanished in a heap of brick dust and rubble
..
CHINNICK James Henry – Fireman NFS at 50 Barnby Street (resident of Dagenham)
…
Some reports state that 30 people were killed that night and local legend says that some bodies were never recovered from the ruins, but casualty figures are always tricky. The estimates were made from returns submitted by the Warden for the area. He or she had a list of everyone within his/her designated territory, mostly compiled by simply touring round and knocking on doors and recording what he/she was told. It certainly was the case that the initial report of casualties turned out to be incorrect. Supposedly unaccounted people turned up days’ later. Others reported as ‘with friends or family’ were later found dead in the rubble or simply vanished, presumed dead.Indeed, one of the casualties, James Chinnick, is a bit of a puzzle. The CWGC Roll of Honour states: “Fireman, N.F.S. Husband of M. F. Chinnick, of 56 Brewood Road, Dagenham. Died at 50 Barnby Street”. Was he staying at Barnby Street and killed in the explosion or was he one of the rescue workers and killed whilst on duty at the disaster.
It seems like the fabrication of deaths was as easy as 1,2,3….29 in those times.
In the BMD registers, James Henry Chinnick poorly checks-out. Different initials for his wife (FM instead of MF). And strangely, no record of his birth, either. Should have been born around 1911-12; yet hisbirth not in BMD. Nevertheless, married a Florence M Torr; W.Ham Q3 1933. James H Chinnick died aged 33; W.Ham Q1 1945, apparently in that V2 bombing. Recorded as father of two children. First born Stepney Q4 1933, and second born Stepney Q1 1936.
Where did he go? Reassigned under new identity? Returned to overseas birthplace, maybe? Or simmed from the beginning? As psyop fodder? An intelligence “rent-a-dad”, disguising illegitimacy? And, later, a revenue generator via war widows and orphans pension?
This is 1916, the address 149 London Road South, Kirkley, Lowestoft;The whole district looks pretty derelict. Perhaps it was already condemned, even before being “bombed” by a Zeppelin?
The corner shop further down – 167 London Rd (now Windsor Gallery), has a triangle-shaped punch hole in it.
Yet no sign today of any repairs to the brickwork.
It seems like the fabrication of deaths was as easy as 1,2,3….29 in those times.
In the BMD registers, James Henry Chinnick poorly checks-out. Different initials for his wife (FM instead of MF). And strangely, no record of his birth, either. Should have been born around 1911-12; yet his birth not in BMD. Nevertheless, married a Florence M Torr; W.Ham Q3 1933. James H Chinnick died aged 33; W.Ham Q1 1945, apparently in that V2 bombing. Recorded as father of two children. First born Stepney Q4 1933, and second born Stepney Q1 1936.
Where did he go? Reassigned under new identity? Returned to overseas birthplace, maybe? Or simmed from the beginning? As psyop fodder? An intelligence “rent-a-dad”, disguising illegitimacy? And, later, a revenue generator via war widows and orphans pension?
Did you notice that another cockney geezer John D Chinnick 1911-1946 – died aged only 35, of 48 Whitcomb Street, Westminster. [a derelict pub, the Hand and Racquet behind the National Gallery] Bad luck for the Chinnicks. At least this one was born, although his wife was Kathleen, a seeming shotgun wedding with only one child.
Conversely there was no probate for the enigmatic James Henry Chinnick although one of his daughers seems to have married locally and is still living further out in Essex. The other disappears.
sourceJust taking that example, the death lists looks like complete families in Barnby Street. There are a few singularities – e.g.
HORIGAN Miriam 53 52 Barnby Street
who was born Miriam Henrietta Bond in 1892, spouse Arthur Horigan, two children who would have left home, Miriam F E 1917 and Arthur W [1925-1977] who was the administrator of his father’s will.
What is missing in these sets of data is the actual pathology of the event, even the family story of the house and who was in it, how residents survived, where they were at the time…It has been pointed out often in psy-ops how there is a very high ratio of deaths to injuries, moreover instantaneous deaths, rather than lingering ones. One is left disbelieving the information but not knowing what really happened.
It’s also strange how the probate is listed, for examped, two male members of the unlucky HOMEWOOD family at number 50…
Thomas and Matilda Sarah Homewood both of whom
” was believed to have been killed through war operations on 1 February 1945 and whose dead body was found on 1 February 1945. Administration to Thomas Homewood, metal press bender and Doris Margaret Homewood, spinster” Effects, rather symmetrically GBP 378 and 383 [no pence or shillings]Victor, Beatrice and Ellen Homewood allegedly perished, ages 25,23 and 15. It seems like the Homewoods had EIGHJT children, the probate being adminstered by the eldest, b 1913 and the sixth [daughter] born 1924. Joyce A Homewood, aged 17 seems to have survived and escaped mention, the others no doubt married or left home. It would seem like a huge family tragedy on the surface.
An alleged V2 rocket was exhumed in 2012 in South East England, an isolated area, close to military installations, which was something of a V2 landing hotspot.
http://www.rochforddistricthistory.org.uk/page/v2_rocket_landings_in_rochford_district_194445
for instance – two of which fell close to Creeksea Place Camp.
[a military installation in the middle of nowhere…]
http://www.essex-family-history.co.uk/ww2.htmImages from the Wallasea Island exhumation – March 29 2012
from the descriptionFrom the press
View of the combustion chamber from the top showing a LOX/Ethanol burner cap. The severe damage to the motor was caused by an explosion within the chamber at altitude causing the warhead to detonate high and (comparatively) harmlessly. These remains are asssumed to be from such an “air-burst” over Paglesham or Foulness Island.
A comparatively large number of V2’s fell on or around the virtually unpopulated Foulness Archipelago, testament to the effectiveness of “fall of shot” misinformation supplied by Allied Intelligence intended to confuse the range settings and protect London.
The motor has been recovered now as this part of the island is soon to be innundated as part of the Wallasea Wild Coast Project and is intended for display by the RSPB as a part of the island’s history
And the expected “crane” shot, a psy-op staple
Seems like this part is the only V2 bit we ever find.
I can find no further record of this V2 rocket find of 2012. Where did it go?
aa5 at CF is in tune with the thinking here…
http://www.cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1435&start=75I guess there was also some re-assignment/relocation to match up with names on memorials.
I was sent this link by a non-Fakeologist, an amazing wander through a vanished, both buildings and population, Jewish East London in the very late 1960s
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00t3mkz/one-pair-of-eyes-georgia-brown-who-are-the-cockneys-now
If it’s still available, do watch it. I pricked up my ears at 15:05 when the comely narrator mentioned a V2 bomb falling, allegedly, on a 20 year old tenement block called Hughes Mansions in Vallence Road, Stepney, E1
She said 150 people were killed, many of them her [Jewish] schoolfriends.
The date was March 25 1945, the day before Passover. The alleged death toll was lower at 134, the second biggest V rocket event in the war.
Let’s see.
A 70th anniversary commemoration was held by the Jewish East End Celebration Society , about 15 people
Plaque
[witness Ben Glaizner said] .[the bedroom light] suddenly went out and simultaneously there was a flash of blue light.Then nothing.”
http://www.westendatwar.org.uk/page_id__248.aspx
Most deaths were attributed to various injuries from the explosion and its aftermath. Others were reported to have died instantly from asphyxiation caused by the vacuum created by the rocket’s descent.Whaaaat??
The demolished tenement with a crane already visible
to be continued….
Rather a lot of these alleged V2 rockets seemed to be making their way towards the Waltham Abbey Gunpowder factories, north of London by about 15 miles. Intelligent rockets? The previously investigated Nazeing V2 ‘strike’ which allegedly killed 10 people has already been documented, but needs slight expanding in due course.
The main centres of population are Waltham Holy Cross and Waltham Abbey. Several of these 15 such events [phew!] are reported as airbursts, i.e. the rocket allegedly breaking up in the air. Obviously there would still be significant debris if these were real events.
http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/timeline.html
We find a ‘witness’ story relating to one of these…we all know about ‘witnesses’ now. This one from someone named Eileen S Evans, who was Eileen S LeSurf at the time. [genealogy checks out] This relates to a March 7 1945 incident.
This story is dictated by Mrs. Eileen Evans (nee Le Surf), as told to her grandson Patrick Watson who has written this article for her.
[She had two children, Kay and Kim] Patrick, the scribe, would have been only 14 or 15 at the time of writing this history…
Eileen – well into the social media thing at 83..
https://www.facebook.com/eileen.evans.3760http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/14/a6859614.shtml
On 7th of March 1945, I was coming back from shopping for my mother in Highbridge Street, when I heard a noise in the sky so loud that I immediately looked up and saw what appeared to be a rocket, with long flames coming out of the back of it, the rocket’s engine stopped and it came descending to the ground, about 75 yards ahead of me, it blew me down to the ground, I was lucky to have survived. The devastation was caused by a German V2 rocket, which is believed to making for the Waltham Abbey Gunpowder Mills in Powdermill Lane, nearly all the buildings from Powdermill Lane to Refinery bridge in Highbridge Street was devastated, 5 people were killed and 53 were injured.
HmmmEileen was born in 1933 [Q4] and told the story in 10 November 2005 when she was about 72 years old. Seems like a lucky escape!
The bomb site
There are numerous photos of another alleged V2 site one the west side of the River Lee, in Waltham Cross Allegerdly, a brush factory was ‘hit’. Photos are annotated January 10 1945, supported by alleged witnesses
There’s quite a bit of posing around this concrete structure for the cameras, looking rather staged
and another – showing more ‘devastation’ perhaps a boiler explosion?
But the duping here gives the game away – an almost certain hoax
Some stories here
My mother Violet Carter, and her sister Joyce were both working in the brush factory when the V2 hit, unhurt but badly shaken, they rushed to their home at 5 Swanfield Road to check on the family.
By Janice Soons (11/09/2013)
really?? Unhurt in that devastation?It was 10th January 1945. My aunt was the company secretary. A photo of her, forehead bleeding, taking the rollcall to see who was missing, appeared on the front page of the Mirror. You can buy copies from their archives. I am so proud of her. She later married Mr Chadwick.
By Ian D (30/03/2015)Same old stuff. Oddly, there no reference to a V2 rocket hitting Waltham Cross on January 10 1945 in the master list! [top link]
There’s a guy here who thinks he has been unearthing V2 fragments [and he’s selling them on eBay. seller ringo969]
Ringo helpfully provides some V1/V2 data on his page
Weight 12.5 tonnes approx.Are these really pieces of rocket? As with “plane crashes” there’s always a shortage of mass left behind. So, wherever the burst/crash is, there ought to be 12.5 tonnes of stuff dumped somewhere which wasn’t there before. Ringo also reminds us that these explosions were initially blamed on gas main explosions [i.e. nobody would have noticed rockets, perahps because there weren’t any] Naturally ringo doesn’t identify the field he is digging up [in Essex perhaps]
From a “history reminder” article the day before the 9/11 anniversary in 2014, we read
Initially British politicians tried to cover up the new threat to their people, blaming gas explosions, but this ruse was quickly seen through, and people began to refer to V2s sardonically as ‘flying gas pipes’.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2750353/Interactive-map-reveals-hundreds-sites-Hitler-s-V2-rockets-killed-thousands-British-civilians-final-months-WW2.htmlIf these aren’t big enough red flags, here’s another
http://www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?PHPSESSID=e4a2c2da787ead744cbaff43273b930b&topic=7582.45The first V2 to fall in Kent was on September 10th 1944 in a field at Crouch Farm, Crockenhill, near Swanley. It caused no casualties or damage but brought down thousands of apples from a nearby orchard and gave the farmer his quickest apple picking season ever!
Field Crouch Farm, Crockenhill, September 1944
Yup, no rocket, parts, just a load of apples. A very easy hoax to pull off.
Did every single V1/V2 rocket explode? The media continues to peddle stories about unexploded WW2 bombs being found [and those handy emergency evacuation drills put into place – perhaps these “finds” are also hoaxes?] Surely there would have been some compete rockets which just fell to earth in a condition which didn’t result in smithereens?
A recent obituary concerned a “rocket scientist” who was allegedly fascinated as a boy by V2 rockets
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/feb/20/sir-peter-mansfield-obituary
he had been fascinated by the V1 and V2 rockets that fell on London in 1944 and wrote to the editor of the Daily Mirror asking how he could find a job in rocket science.
He was told to contact the Ministry of Supply, and so he began work in its Rocket Propulsion Department in Westcott, Buckinghamshire. His studies at evening classes led to A-levels and a place at Queen Mary College, London, to read physics.The online Telegraph obituary of Professor Sir Peter Mansfield leaves out the interesting sentence which is available here [paywall]
http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-daily-telegraph/20170211/282359744457865
“His scientific curiosity had been kindled by the by the V1 flying bomb s and the V2 rockets which fell on London in 1944, when he was 11. He collected fragments and taught himself about weapons and explosivesWho knows what he was collecting, perhaps just a load of planted plumbers waste?
Since so many V2 rockets allegedly landed North and South of London, I would have thought that quite a few would have landed in the River Thames, leaving some significant debris.
From this map
http://londonist.com/2009/01/london_v2_rocket_sitesmapped
quite a few “landed” on the river bank, but the only incident which fulfils this criterion for landing in the drink is here…
March 9, 1945, 0 Dead
‘In River Thames, 30 Yards off number 2 coal pier’. Location uncertain.
Source: Woolwich Civil Defence Logs courtesy of Steve Hunnisett.No mention of any wreckage, explosion. These Civil Defence logs would be easy to massage with made up events.
Some of the marked V2 rocket events are unbelievable marked with a question mark, meaning location unknown.
e.g.
Sutton-at-Hone
description
March 14, 1944, 10 dead
Location unknown, but near a fish bar and butchers. From ‘Doodlebugs and Rockets’Another unknown outlier caught my eye:
Mayplace Avenue
description
Reader contribution from Joseph Chadwick.“A rocket that fell in Mayplace Avenue, Crayford and killed half of the Illott family. They are buried in the cemetary at St. Paulinus Church in Crayford. The date will be recorded on their shared tombstone. Joe Chadwick. Melbourne, Australia.”
That’s interesting. Let’s see. The family name is actually Ilott,
Here are death records for the 2nd quarter of June in that area for that name…Ilott Colleen M 11 Dartford 2a 1077
Ilott Daniel E 0 Dartford 2a 1077
Ilott Dorothy M 7 Dartford 2a 1077
Ilott Elizabeth 39 Dartford 2a 1076 –
Ilott Gerald 5 Dartford 2a 1077
Ilott John A J 42 Dartford 2a 1076
Ilott Margaret M 16 Dartford 2a 1077That looks to me like a whole family relocated.
Administration (limited) was granted to John Anthony Joseph Ilott and Lila Elizabeth Ilott [both died June 16 1944, both grants to James Morrison, Labourer and Harry Ilott, machinist, but dates of the grant are different viz – October 18 1944, £229 8s 9d and July 13 1944 £725 6s 5d. The wife had assets three times her husband which is perhaps unusual for the time. The address of both is given as 25 Mayplace Avenue, Crayford.The mother’s maiden name was Morrison and nine children were born between 1930 and 1944. The “surviving” five “orphans” are Victor M [b. 1930, Lancaster] Jack C [b.1931] Harold M [1934], Michael S. [1935] and Dennis [1941], the rest being born in the Crayford area.
There is no marriage registered for John AJ Ilott in England and Wales or indeed an Ilott Morrison marriage. There is no record of a birth circa 1927/1928 for a Margaret M Ilott.
Harry Ilott of 129 Colyers Lane in nearby Erith b. 1904 died in 1967 aged 62 followed by wife Beatrice M Ilott [1905-1989]. There is no suitable birth for John A J Ilott in 1901 or 1902.There is another reference to a V2 related burial in the same church cemetery in Crayford –
Peter Arthur Day and Peter Thacker both aged 15, died February 18 1945 Barnehurst
Also marked on the strangely mixed family grave are the dates of Thacker’s parents who may or may not be interred there.
John William Thacker 1902-1983
Florence Annie Thacker 1907-1989
no dates are provided for the last two names.
Here’s the story attached to the Flickr page..
It was a Sunday morning when two boys, Peter Day & Peter Thacker called at my farther, David Hoskins’s house in Stephen Road, but Sundays was his only day off, and he fancied a lay-in.So the boys informed his mum that they will be over by the “short cut” this was a piece of land that mostly contained trees, that is now roughly where the houses in Grazeley Close have been built on.
By all accounts, just before a V2 Rocket landed, the first thing you heard was a noise like a whip cracking, then the explosion, after that you could hear the whistle of the rocket, this was due to the incredible speed of the V2, by the time it impacted, it would be traveling at three times the speed of sound, the whip crack sound was the sonic boom, the whistle after, was the sound of the tail fins catching up with the rocket,
My dad was told by neighbors about the bomb landing over by the gasworks, he went around Peter Days house in manor way, but when he got there he saw one of Peters brothers crying, the Policeman who was talking to the family came over to my dad and asked his name, when he told him he said “we can stop looking for you then son”.
I understand that very little was found of the two Peters; they are buried together in St Paulinus graveyard, both aged 15 years.
Who knows what went on in those days, when children, especially from large families were routinely given up for adoption or put in homes.
Thackers – latterly lived at 38 Milford Close, Abbey Wood SE2
Peter Day – apparently only child of Percy Frederick Day [1904 – 1933] and Mabel E Day
John William Henry Thacker born Derby, married Florence Annie Johnson Chesterfield 1926 There is no birth registered for a Peter Thacker in 1929-1930, mother Johnson.
All very, very strange.I found this 1977 documentary quite interesting and amusing at times.
sorry, double post
I found this 1977 documentary quite interesting and amusing at times.
Just re-watching the above video since the veracity of von Braun’s accent has come under scrutiny from JLB. [it’s a weird one, somehow I kept thinking of the west of Oireland or the Outer Hebrides of Scotland and then Sweden!] But go to 39.55 until 40.16 – the same old “crashed” rocket motor which keeps turning up in the marshes of SE England. Perhaps it’s the same one which Himmler witnesses, allegedly, doing a boomerang back, conveniently, on several of Luftwaffe planes. They look deliberately wrecked in the manner of modern day plane and helicopter “crashes”.
My thesis is that these V1/2 rocket attacks were staged explosions while the locals were taking cover.
On a slightly different tack, here’s another variant, the parachute bomb.
http://ww2today.com/21st-september-1940-the-menace-of-the-parachute-mine
Bombed out, and they’re laughing their heads off, clutching undamaged household items..suuuure
They were released from Heinkel III bombers and drifted down to ground level by parachute, detonating either by contact or by a clockwork mechanism. When the parachute became entangled in buildings they often failed to explode, leaving those who had to face defusing them with the uncertainty that there might also be a clockwork timer operating.In residential areas the above ground blast was capable of demolishing whole streets:
So, a bit like the effects of the “rockets”.
Case study – Stanford le Hope, Essex, UK, about 30km East of Londdon
http://www.thurrockgazette.co.uk/news/14376344.Memories__when_a_WWII_paramine_destroyed_a_Stanford_le_Hope_street/
The BBC mixes the date up by a year…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/53/a4461653.shtmlNow we have a memorial…check
My Grandparents lived in 74 Corringham Road, Stanford-le-Hope, my brother and I lived in 36 Burgess Road (Burgess Avenue, as it was then), during the raid, the Germans dropped a parachute mine, which fell and hung suspended from the telephone wires in Corringham Road at the junction with Burgess Road, it was 8th April, 1940, nine people perished, four of them were my school friends and their parents. Our house and my Grandparents home were close by and suffered a lot of damage, as a result my Grandparents were put into Prefab (a quick way of re-housing bombed out families) and my family was housed in a vacant council house in Conrad Road.From the March 26 2016 article
Present day images show the Rainbow Stores to be almost unchanged, whilst a Salvation Army citadel occupies the site of the lower image.
The damaged houses could be 32-26 Burgess RoadThe grandparents’ house is here
The story is starting to make no sense. Here’s more…
On April 8, 1941, one such deadly bomb drifted down from the sky before lightly settling on the overhead phone wires at the junction of Corringham Road and Burgess Avenue.See Glasgow photo above to see if this seems reasonable…
Olga Burrell’s father, Walter Whipps, a refinery worker at Shell, was disturbed by a strange whispering sound.
Going to the window, he was hit by the full force of the explosion, with both his eyes instantly blown out. Olga’s aunt Alfreda Newton, also lost her life.
There were other families who didn’t make it to the shelter in time. Shirley Davison, then Lewis, of Corringham Road, described a “whooshing” sound as they tried to make it to the shelter.She said: “Our house was shaking and moving as if it were alive. There was a great shudder. Terrified we crept along the hall as the house began to fall down around us. As soon as we reached the road, our home crumbled to the ground.”
Looking around, she said: “There was debris and people everywhere, some wounded and bleeding, others lying very still. People were crying and calling out for their families, many of whom were buried in the rubble.
“Strangely, I wasn’t frightened.”
John Read’s grandfather Alfred Read, a horseman, who was sleeping on the living room sofa at the front of the house on Burgess Avenue, made a miraculous escape when the living room door blew off and landed on him, protecting him from the blast.
Len [Snell] had been on the street after the hit and found a man sitting in the rubble with his hands over his face, a burst water main gushing all around him and his eyes blown out. He helped him.
Olga said: “When he told me I felt a sense of horror and recognition, and said, ‘Len, that was my Dad.’ Walter, who went on to become a telephonist, “never showed any bitterness” according to daughter Olga.Rrrright.
Olga was born in 1937, Q2, so she was barely 4 years old, and not frightened….
Olga had a sister Souriya E Whipps b 1930, who would have been 10 years old at the time, and who vanishes from all records subsequently….and is not mentioned in the above story.
Her father, Walter David Whipps died aged 60 in 1963, so we read, while living at 25 Webster Road.
Alfreda [nee Pont] was Enid’s sister. The death is recorded.She and her husband Henry Newton had a daughter Sheila L Newton, b 1930 also who similarly vanishes from records.
Olga’s mother Enid died in rural Dunmow in 1991, no doubt close to Olga, where she was president of the local women’s Rotary club
http://www.dunmowbroadcast.co.uk/news/essex-rotary-club-wants-new-members-1-557920
Mrs Burrell forms a close bond between the groups as her late husband Geoff [d.2004] was a former president of the rotary.
August 2010
Her first husband died in 2016Here’s another suspicious parachute bomb, also from Essex…Theydon Bois in Epping Forest
http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/theydon-bois-essex-german-parachute-mine-kings-own-scottish-borderers.71359/30 Scottish soldiers, allegedly billeted in a tea room, which gets a direct hit and they all die….with another 30 injured… this being in a rural area, early morning November 18 1940. Church memorial, 1998 – check.
http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/viewtopic.php?t=2590&highlight=theydon+bois&mforum=warmemscot
two dropped. One landed in Piercing Hill, but the other brushed the roof of the Retreat before hitting the helter-skelter and exploding. The Retreat was completely blown apart, and twenty-six soldiers were killed. Over the next few days two more died of their wounds. All the deaths were recorded at Epping Registry Office.
Brushed…Rrrright.
And here come the unexploded parachute mines from the deep, 70 years later…no photos
2009, Bradwell on Sea
http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/parachute-mine-blown-up-off-essex-coast-1-171045
A spokeswoman from Thames Coastguard said Essex Marine Police and the Ministry of Defence co-ordinated the operation and it was kept secret from the media and public to minimise the amount of boats sailing down to the area to get a look.and 2011 [again no photos]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2015783/Royal-Navy-delays-destruction-2-000lb-World-War-Two-Essex-coast-weather.html
When detonated at roof level rather than on impact the blast effect was increased.
Amazing technology.Here’s one which didn’t detonate “at roof level”. Note the give-away parachute….
RrrrightThere’s a large number of V2 anecdotes here
https://londonist.com/2009/01/london_v2_rocket_sitesmapped#disqus_thread
one caught my eye, a Boxing Day V2 landing, conveniently, on a pub in Holloway, killing 68, allegedly.
Neil • 9 years ago
My Grandparents George C Streeter and Agatha E Streeter were the proprieters (as listed in the 1943 phone book) of the Prince of Wales, 144 MacKenzie Road, that got hit by a V2 at 21:25 on Boxing day 1944. they were the only survivors in the pub in which 68 people died. the blast blew them behind the counter which protected them, the pub was “heaving to he rafters” as a nearby pub had run out of beer. my grandmother got a lot of glass in her arm and both were affected by the blast.My cousin recounts the story of how they lost everything and went to a centre where they were given clothes and food. Following this they moved to live with relatives in Hastings here they turned up on the door step in very strange attire including a red berret, and stayed there until their deaths much later in life.
Many people lost their lives in the blast many more were injured 56 seriously and 202 slightly. Pretty much the whole block was destroyed.
many kids were sat on the steps outside while their parents celebrated christmas inside, they also lost their lives.
Some of those killed include:-
OSBORNE, HILDA aged 29 of 115 Mackenzie Road. Daughter of J. Sorrell, of 46 Highbury Hill; wife of George Sidney Osborne (H.M Forces). Died at Prince of Wales, Mackenzie Road.
PARIS, MABEL aged 49 Wife of Charles Henry Paris, of 171 Liverpool Buildings. Died at Prince of Wales, Mackenzie Road.
PEACOCK, CLARA aged 34 and William aged 34 of 16 Hollingsworth Street. Daughter of Louisa, and of the late John Tower; wife of William J. Peacock. Both died at Prince of Wales, Mackenzie Road.
SORRELL, VIOLET ELIZABETH aged 32 Wife of Frederick James Sorrell, of 28 Goulding Court, Turnpike Lane, Hornsey, Middlesex. Died at Mackenzie Road 26/12/1944
NEWELL, WILLIAM HERBERT aged 47 Husband of Ellen Margaret Newell, of 13 Arundel Square. Died at Prince of Wales, Mackenzie Road.
NEIGHBOUR, EMILY MINNIE aged 19 W.L.A. Daughter of James and A. Neighbour, of 57 Bemerton Street. Died at Mackenzie Road.
MORRIS, ETHEL FLORA aged 23 of 115 Mackenzie Road. Daughter of William J. Gardner, of 4 Mackenzie Road; wife of William Morris. Died at Prince of Wales, Mackenzie Road.
MITCHELL, FREDERICK GEORGE aged 11 of 19 Ringcroft Street. Son of the late Ernest John Mitchell. Died at Mackenzie Road.
MITCHELL, ERNEST JOHN aged 38 Islington Decontamination Service; of 19 Ringcroft Street, Holloway, London. Son of Mrs. E. Mitchell, of 60 Mackenzie Road, Holloway. Injured 26 December 1944, at Mackenzie Road; died at Grovelands Hospital.
MILLS, ROBERT JOHN aged 13 of 16 Crown Mansions, Liverpool Road. Son of Robert John and Elizabeth Hannah Mills. Died at Mackenzie Road. 26/12/1944
MILLS, ELIZABETH HANNAH aged 50 of 16 Crown Mansions, Liverpool Road. Wife of Robert John Mills. Died at Mackenzie Road.
MILLS, ROBERT JOHN aged 45 of 16 Crown Mansions, Liverpool Road. Husband of Elizabeth Hannah Mills. Died at Mackenzie Road.
RAMSAY, JOHN HERBERT aged 51 Husband of Lilian G. Ramsay, of 90 Rhodes Street. Died at Prince of Wales, Mackenzie Road.
RANSON, MAUREEN VIOLET aged 12 of 25 Chillingworth Road. Daughter of Frederick Ranson. Injured 26 December 1944, at 25 Chillingworth Road; Islington N7 at back of the pub died at Royal Northern Hospital.
REYNOLDS, LULU ELIZABETH aged 35 Daughter of Mr. and Mrs. H. Harding, of 109 George’s Road, Holloway; wife of Arthur Reynolds, of 184 Deansbrook Road, Burnt Oak. Died at Prince of Wales, Mackenzie Road.
ROWLANDS, HENRY CHARLES aged 49 of 535 Liverpool Road. Husband of Betty May Rowlands. Died at Prince of Wales, Mackenzie Road.
E SAYERS of 152 Mackenzie Road. Died at 152 Mackenzie Road. 26 december 1944
SIDNEY, EMILY aged 60 of 7 Alexander Road. Wife of Wallace Sidney. Died at Prince of Wales, Mackenzie Road.
SIDNEY, WALLACE aged 60 of 7 Alexander Road. Husband of Emily Sidney. Died at Prince of Wales, Mackenzie Road.hmmmmm
Does any of this make sense-
Bill Patey Neil • 7 years ago
My dad who lived in Lough Road ( previously Wellington Road), off Mackenzie Road visited the V2 bomb site ( now part of Paradise Park) on 25 September 2010. He was 17 the day after the V2 and says there were several children of the same family callled Jarvis, who were sitting upright seemingly asleep with a placard pinned to their chest which said “blast”. There were no outward signs of injury but each of them was dead. Many of the injured were carried to hospital in a van of a member of the armed forces who was AWOL. He arrived on the scene 45 minutes before any help arrived and departed the scene before too many questions were asked.suuuure
And a further commenter pops up with the same unlikely story of a pub running out of beer.
Jwatsonbore Bill Patey • 6 years ago
Bill,
Please look at my replies to Neil. My mother and her sisters could remember the Jarvis children. I believe that they were all buried in Finchley Cemetery.
Best wishes,
JennyDavid Neil • 7 years ago
My mother’s father was killed at the pub he was Albert Bussey he had been to another pub but it was sold out of beer so he went to the Prince of Wales where my grandmother worked behind the bar He had been to the Flying Horse I think My grandmother had gone into the cellar to get some ginger wine as someone ordered a whisky mac and she survived the blast but was a long time in the cellar her hand bag had all the money taken and my mother who was living in Chillingworth road ran to the scene and saw that people had been blown out of the windows and were on the street out side My grandmother had a piece of glass taken out of her cheek in about 1954 it had been there since 1944 my mother could only identifier her dad by his keys he had been burnt as the gas main had caught fire My mum is still alive she’s 90 years old and lives in Norfolk. My sister and I have had to listen to the story every Christmas which has had a dampening to all our childhood Christmases Please get in touch Best Wishes David Howell my mother is Lilian Howell nee Bussey her cousin is also still alive Ernie “Dixie” Dean who lives in Muswell HillAlbert Bussey, aged 54 has his death recorded in 1944 Q4.
hmmmmm
Children named Jarvis who died in Islington, 1945 Q1 recorded.
Daniel T 13 *
Jacqueline 1 * [birth mother Harrod [sic]]
Lydia A 4 *
Peter 13 [perhaps unrelated]
Phyllis 9 * [no satisfactory birth recorded] I suspect she’s Lydia Phyllis]
Sheila 7 * [Harrod [sic]]
William P 6 * [Harrod]No likely parent called Jarvis died. It’s looking like relocation of a large family.
So, six children and no parents die in a pub explosion?
Who were the siblings?
* parents James Walter Jarvis b 1895 d 1960 and Amy Cissie O. nee Harrad [1897-1963] married 1914, who had other older children, total = 10
Births Sep 1916 J George H
Births Jun 1920 Herbert D A
Births Sep 1924 Patrick J
Births Jun 1926 Ned L [married locally and dually as Leonard E Jarvis !] 1949, [w= Rosina L Lambert ], b 1929, who latterly lived together in Benfleet Essex.
http://www.192.com/atoz/people/jarvis/leonard/ss7/3968605252/Mrs “Rosina L. Jarvis” died 8/23/2013 as Lydia Rosina Jarvis
some more “dead” from the Mackenzie Road V2 bomb [the whole area was redeveloped after the war]
No old buildings are leftGeorge Hubert Betts (1881 – 1944) – He died on December 26, 1944 at age 63. He was buried in Islington Metropolitan Borough, Civilian War Dead.[dead at the same time was his wife May B Betts nee Tyrrell, whom he married only in 1934]
Alfred Syrett (1922 – 1944) – He was buried in Islington Metropolitan Borough, Civilian War Dead.
Ernest Wallace Tummons (1874 – 1944) – He died on December 26, 1944 at 70 years old. He was buried in Islington Metropolitan Borough, Civilian War …
Mary Amelia Ruth Hartnup (1872 – 1944) – She died on December 26, 1944 at age 72. She was buried in Islington Metropolitan Borough, Civilian War dead …[registered 1945 Q1] “widow of 121 Mackenzie Road N7, who is believed to have been killed through war operations on December 27 1944 and whose dead body was found on December 27 1944 – effects £300 administration to Herbert John How, house decorator”The above group are the equivalent of the “retiree” fictims.
Islington Local History Center has …
a report on the response to the bombing of Mackenzie Road (1944)Does it now!
Syrett born Alfred G Syrett, father = Charles Syrett [b.1891] mother = Emily E Pasby/Parsby. Married 1913. one of nine children, although in 1923 Emily married a William Thomas Syrett [b.1885], perhaps her first husband’s brother, and again in 1935 to a Bertram Mills; Charles married Edith M Waker and went on to have two more children with her….a complex set up.
Here’s the expected memorial plaque to keep up the lie
A full list of the 73 alleged to have died is found here
http://bookofremembrance.islington.gov.uk/BookOfRemembrance/eventFolder.aspx?id=8419
and a small bio is found on each.and details are given at incident #391 here
entries 957-1030The survival of the publicans is, of course, perverse and unbelievable.
George Charles Streeter [1900-1981] and Agatha Ellen Streeter [1902- 1980] nee Fellows, both of Hastings area, married 1925 and returned back to that area subsequently, latterly of 2 Old Harrow Road, St Leonards on Sea.A trio of videos from a Flat Earth channel on the absurdity of the technology of the V2 There’s some overlap.
Note – the top video became unavailable immediately after I posted. It was linked in the description of the lower video and contained many useful clips of staged street scenes in London to support the V1 and V2 hoax
Flat Earth : The V2 Hitlers FantaStick Fantasy Rockets Part 2 and 1Here’s a forum about an area of SE England, north of the Thames, which has a few interesting comments.
Naturally many of the stories are second-hand, describing broken windows or large craters [think Shanksville…] which prove nothing.
http://www.rochforddistricthistory.org.uk/page/v2_rocket_landings_in_rochford_district_194445?path=0p146p126pe.g.
Tues Dec 12th 1945 – Creeksea – Slight damage to property. – Motor recovered by Royal marines and taken to nearby large house where they were billeted.It stood in the garden for some years until acquired by the Wallis Family in 1973.
[see above photos for images of “found” motors]I was told by my parents that several V2s came down in the area of Shotgate. During WW2 one of Norman Clarke’s (former Mayor of Southend) jobs at Fort Halstead in Kent was to produce reports of V2 strikes in the UK, but to associate each strike with the arrival time of a different launch, so that, if the Germans actually checked the newspaper reports, they would associate impacts with the wrong launches, thereby distorting their range calculations and settings.
By Bernard de Neumann
On 26/01/2015hmmmmm Perhaps synthetic V2 strike reports, fake V2 launches and conventional bombings to produce the craters and destroy barns, etc.
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