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9 thoughts on “Audiochat-Tom,Unreal,Mojo

  1. psyopticon

    Prima facie, agreeing with Tom on this one. The Munich Air Disaster appears to have happened. If it didn’t happen – if it was faked – a motive is difficult to gauge. What would Man United, the British powers-that-be, or even the wider body of soccer gain from it? The martyrdom of “Busby’s Babes“; the creation of a solemn soccer legend to eulogise for ever more? The pulling-together of the public? That setting aside of internecine differences in an emotional outpouring of misplaced grief for these soccer greats? Gelling us all together behind a common cause?

    Or, maybe, a psyop attacking the airline itself – the state-owned British European Airways – and a grand insurance swindle to boot? Multiple massive claims against the insurer and its underwriters? In another so-called “sheering of the sheep” at Lloyd’s of London, perhaps?

    Though it’s hard to see how seven first-team United players could be vanished and forfeited to pull it all off. Nor indeed what was achieved for the club, if it was a hoax.

    Recall, the team was on its journey home, after drawing 3-3 but winning on aggregate the day before (6th February 1958), in a European Cup game against Belgrade Red Star FC. Those missing, presumed dead players had made an appearance on pitch in Yugoslavia. And on the Saturday previous, most of the same United players had turned out for a game at Highbury in London. Which undermines the possibility that the dead players were rookies making their debut or near-debut appearances in Yugoslavia. They weren’t unknown expendables “killed” in a faux crash the next day. They weren’t rookie players used in a one-off psyop. They were regular first-teamers who would have been well-known to, and loved by soccer fans. Would the club willingly sacrifice half its first-team to an air-crash psyop? In dire financial distress, just maybe it would. But was it? There’s no hinting at money troubles at United.

    The contemporary weather accounts spoke of very bad ice and snow conditions in Britain (and Europe, too?). So in respect of the weather, the timing for an air crash was on cue. With heavy snow at home, the British public could relate to the reported conditions on the continent.

    The imagery of the crashed airframe is hard to interpret. It does look a bit hooky, as Felix points out. The crash damage to the plane’s port side (left) appears far worse in some images than in others. For better comparison, a United fansite in Persian has gathered together higher resolution copies of the images posted above, and a few more: See:

    In particular, these images were carried in the Manchester Evening News:…… (the white halo around the hairline of the left-most person is problematic)…… (the falling snow looks somewhat Disney-ish)…

    Altogether, surprisingly few photographs existent today, for what was ostensibly such a world-changing event. The fewer images the better, maybe, if this was a psyop?
    Some of the crash images in the press at the time look doctored, too. Almost like someone drew on top of them. Better highlighting certain aspects, or falsifying the images altogether. Like many images of earlier times, are these photographs at all? Or are they, in fact, part-drawing?

    e.g. see:

    In the example above from The Times (London); 8 Feb 1958, we see the initials of the airline (B.E.A.) and its familiar Crown logo shown clearly and indisputably. But considering the poor overall quality of the images, perhaps those logos are shown a bit too clearly? À la that overtly obvious American Airlines livery on debris “found” at the 9/11 Pentagon site. And, on debris at an air ambulance crash highlighted earlier by Felix.

    Overall, though, not much to go on, if it was a hoax.

    A few newspaper reports from the time are below. Perhaps Tom Dalpra, with his expert soccer insight might recognise an ‘easter-egg’ or two, a subtle hat-tip perhaps in the pre-game commentary? Clues alluding, maybe, to the tragedy to unfold?!

    1. xileffilex

      Your research and archived photos much appreciated, psy.
      I have immense problems reconciling the massive front end damage with the offical narrative, summarised at Wankypedia , which I already knew, thus:

      , it ploughed through a fence beyond the end of the runway and the left wing was torn off after hitting a house.

      Rather unusually, instead of wondering where the plane went to, I am more worried about where the house went to. Dustified? Slushified?

      Here’s a ticket with the score neatly written on it – like you always do at a game 😉…

      The match:

      Here’s Bobby from the left…

      Here’s Bobby [from the right]…

      and from the left again…

      And Albert Scanlon…

      Dennis Viollet……

      Bobby again…

      And from our friends at the BBC
      Bobby and Ray Wood…

      and Dennis and Albert……

      Albert on his own…

      Matt Busby……

      The last couple are from this page, which also contains some very fuzzy side-on plane photos.

      One more suspicious damage image here…

      Concluding remarks from Wankypedia

      The plane skidded off the end of the runway, crashed into the fence surrounding the airport and across a road before its port wing was torn off as it caught a house, home to a family of six. The father and eldest daughter were away and the mother and the other three children escaped as the house caught fire. Part of the plane’s tail was torn off before the left side of the cockpit hit a tree. The right side of the fuselage hit a wooden hut, inside which was a truck filled with tyres and fuel, which exploded.

      which is based on the book Stephen R. Morrin (2007). The Munich Air Disaster.

  2. Nemesis

    Good chat, the part Transhuman agenda was part of our pop-culture even back in the 70s

    Another Nasa/CIA themed show from back in the day – Six Million Dollar Man

    “We can rebuild him…we have the technology,”

    ‘When NASA astronaut Steve Austin is severely injured in the crash of an experimental lifting body aircraft, he is “rebuilt” in an operation that costs six million dollars. His right arm, both legs and the left eye are replaced with “bionic” implants that enhance his strength, speed and vision far above human norms: he can run at speeds of 60 mph (97 km/h), and his eye has a 20:1 zoom lens and infrared capabilities, while his bionic limbs all have the equivalent power of a bulldozer. He uses his enhanced abilities to work for the OSI (Office of Scientific Intelligence) as a secret agent.’

  3. xileffilex

    Munich Air Crash – oh boy, where to put it, General Sports, or Suspicious Air Crashes?

    Take a gander……
    Ray Wood in a hospital bed with a Stein of Beer…[as you do]

    Remind you of the Hitler Bomb plot “recuperation” ward?…

    [October 27 2007]
    Sir Bobby Charlton has relived his horror and guilt over the 1958 Munich air disaster.
    Eight of his Manchester United team-mates died in the tragedy. Another 15 people also died.
    Sir Bobby, now 70, was pulled from the burning wreckage by goalkeeper Harry Gregg.
    The football legend has said little publicly about the disaster until now, nearly 50 years on.

    He recalls the events of that day in an interview for tonight’s Parkinson programme on ITV1.
    “I thought, ‘Why me? Why am I here with nothing happened to me other than a little gash on the head’ and all these other friends had been killed?

    “I felt it wasn’t fair, why should it be me? It took a long time for me to feel better about it, certainly.
    “It was such a momentous event, for so many young people to die just on the verge of the great success that was ahead of them, and I couldn’t understand why,” he said


    On the third attempt to take off the plane over-shot the runway, hit a house with its port wing, veered to the right, hit another building and burst into flames.

    The fuselage did not catch fire and several crew and passengers went back into the wreckage to rescue the injured.
    Team manager Matt Busby was described as being the most seriously hurt and is being given blood transfusions in hospital.

    Buddy Holly, Jim Reeves., the Big Bopper…

    Some warning signals
    seven… died instantly. Another died from his injuries a couple of weeks later.

    There is often a great gulf between those who die “instantly” and minor injuries or miraculous survivors in these media crashes.

    Manager Matt Busby spent two month in hospital……


    Compare Right side….…

    Left side – the one of whch the wing hit “two houses”:

    source: manutdmemories.files.wordpress…

    Tom, what do you think? Good sports dscussion towards the end of the tape, thanks both. Shame I I can’t post images here.

    This is also worth reading not least because of the tale of goalkeeper Wood.…

    NB also Jackie Blanchflower

    Blanchflower was severely injured, suffering from a fractured pelvis and arms and legs, and crushed kidneys, and his right arm was nearly severed. He was in hospital for two months and was read the last rites in the early days, but survived.[2]

    He tried to return to football, but never made a full recovery. Doctors advised him not to return to football because of fears he would damage his kidney and, a year later, Blanchflower retired from football.
    The callous attitude of Manchester United towards Blanchflower after injury forced the end of his playing career was revealed by journalist David Conn in a 2000 article in The Independent:…

    and Johnny Berry…

    When he woke up he was totally unaware of the plane crash, his injuries having caused a light form of amnesia. One month after he regained consciousness, he found out about the crash from seeing a newspaper. He spent two months in hospital with a fractured skull, a broken jaw, a broken elbow, a broken pelvis, and a broken leg. All of his teeth had to be removed while treating his jaw injuries.

    Two months all round.

    1. Tom Dalpra

      xilef, it needs a thread in the forums, as you say.
      I haven’t looked at it yet. At the moment, they died, as far as I know.

      Perhaps put it in the ‘Hillsborough thread’. There.s four major British football incidents there already.

      Here’s a link anyway, as mentioned in the audio. It perhaps might take a bit of exploring, but we looked at Hillsborough, Heysel, Bradford and Ibrox here >…

      1. xileffilex

        I hadn’t even thought about this piece of “history” before your show. But all the usual hoaxy tropes jump straight out at you. In those days, a 1st division footballer wouldn’t be earning much more than a pro at Cambridge City. I’ll upload some of the images. Perhaps Psyopticon can cast an eye over it. His V1/V2 Rocket contributions at CF wearing his Reichstag Fireman’s helmet are well worth re-reading. ARP wardens…. Indeed.

      1. Tom Dalpra

        The press pack was made up of 9 journalists, 1 photographer and his telegraphist who was responsible for wiring pictures home.
        Only one journalist survived, but both the photographer and his telegraphist were also fortunate.

        I have to wonder if those pictures we see of the crashed aircraft were the ones wired back by
        Peter Howard via his equally fortunate colleague Ted Ellyard ?
        Perhaps that’s why they both survived ?

        (The late) Frank Taylor was the one journalist survivor. (Keep it simple maybe. One hack witness?)
        His account reads a little like cheap fiction here.…

        Did Peter Howard take this picture, I wonder ?

        1. xileffilex

          It seems the journalists were hit particularly badly…but there did seem to be another survivor in addition to the necessary photographers

          Frank Taylor News Chronicle
          Peter Howard Photographer
          Ted Ellyard Photographer

          How fast would that propellor be rotating on takeoff – wouldn’t all the arms be torn to pieces? [click on my “right side” image above]

          The decision to hire a charter aircraft for the trip to Belgrade and the death of George Whittaker, a United director in London, on February 1st 1958 had enormous effects on the Club’s future.

          And there was one travelling “fan” – but not an ordinary fan…

          Mr Satinoff * had made his money in the cotton trade in and around the Manchester area. Outside of his business interests, his main pastime was following Manchester United Football Club, and he was fanatical in his support for his beloved club.
          Willie was close to Matt Busby. So close in fact, that he had travelled with the United team on all of their European exploits since their journey began in the 1956/57 season.
          After the death of George Whittaker, it is almost certain that Willie Satinoff would have been elected onto the Manchester United Board in his place.
          It is my opinion that he would have served on the Board for a long, long time, as he was only 48 at the time and it is more than possible that he would have eventually have become chairman of the club he loved so much.

          – Tom Clare, Houston October 28 2014
          *William Satinoff born Wilhelm Satinoff 1910 in the East End of London

          William Satinoff of Lowood, Bramhall Park Road Cheadle Hulme
          Efects £41,780 5s 3d

          Racecourse owner, apparently
          buried here

          a list of all burial places is found here:

          Gravestone in Hebrew and English

          from this album:


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