BBC Match of the Day – what's all this then?

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  • #415465
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    Not sure why that’s seen as absurd. It’s exactly what happened on 911.

    Is it ? You seem so sure?
    9/11 wasn’t staged in a football stadium was it, for a start ?

    The Leppings Lane end had three sections. The middle section where all the shit is supposed to have happened was a controllable area.

    As I pointed to with Heysel, this Op looks to have been carried-out from within the crowd, if you will.

    In this way there would be tens of thousands of real people who were there to validate the whole thing. There was a real crowd and a real ‘crush’. It makes the whole thing more credible.
    If that’s true then you’re going to be pretty easy to shoot down if you go around saying that the whole thing was done in an empty stadium.

    I don’t think it was.

    DalTampra

    #415517
    psyopticon
    Participant

    Sure, I do see the alternative argument. Nevertheless a closed environment like an empty, locked soccer stadium is even easier to control than a vast area like lower Manhattan. No worrying about local residents or casual onlookers refusing to evacuate for the drill run simultaneously.

    The Hillsborough psyop, if that’s what it was, only had, at most, a couple dozen high-profile media interviewees to set the backdrop. Same with 911. No need for tens of thousands of real people; no genuine eyewitnesses, to validate the whole thing; not when the media can conjure convincing actors like Harley-Man and his chums.

    Maybe we can agree to disagree on this, while agreeing that Hillsborough almost certainly was a psyop, with the objective of turning English soccer from a loutish spectator sport notorious for its violence on the terraces, to a much more genteel, family entertainment watched by a seated middle-class only.

    As for the now missing footage, did anyone save it? There’s a tool for downloading youtube videos to local hard disc. It’s called youtube-dl. I use it all the time. Pretty good for playing back over-and-over in slow-motion, or for extracting video frames, and so on.

    #415629
    xileffilex
    Participant

    Anyway, the RTE video is still up with the BBC footage with cuts to crowd, Brian Clough, etc.

    At 7:02 notice the match referee coming up behind the Liverpool captain at speed, and patting him gently on the bottom, a curious way to say ‘everyone off’.

    This refereee, Raymond Sydney “Ray” Lewis gives a radio account 25 years later, April 2014, here:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27040086
    What, he drove home straight afterwards?? Really?? And he refereed the replay…

    He took thirteen and a half seasons on the full List to reach this level, the longest period in modern times.
    Three months later he refereed Liverpool again in the FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest at Hillsborough.
    The match was abandoned and replayed three weeks later. Lewis handled this game as well with Liverpool winning 3-1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Lewis_%28referee%29

    The match is imho live but there is no panning to the trouble at the Leppings end. It is always inserted by way of cuts.

    The Liverpool captain,Irishman Ronald “Ronnie” Whelan, is now a contributor to RTE Sport
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronnie_Whelan
    The own goal at the end of this clip, involving Grobbelaar and Whelan is unmissable and impossible to fake.

    #416953
    xileffilex
    Participant

    A chum gave me some football magazines to read – “Backpass” – historical soccer. A couple of articles on the Bradford fire caught my eye.

    Issue 44 May/June 2015 – Remembering the 56
    Captain Peter Jackson

    We were ushered off and reconvened at the Belle Vue pub where we had a head call with the officials, players, managers and coaches……An hour later when the flames had been doused I went back to the dressing room for my car keys and personal belongings and looked out on the pitch and saw the body bags.

    John Hendrie [player]

    The referee blew his whistle just before half time and it was in the days when there was a lot of hooliganism and sometimes if there was any trouble on the pitch the referee would take the players off. So I thought there was just a wee bit of trouble n the corner…..I’d been oblivious to it.[the fire].

    Tony Hammond [survivor]

    The smoke in the roof turned to flames and I got scorched on my head and ears..I arrived at the hospital…I had some spray put on my head and then asked the bloke next to me what was wrong with him. He told me he couldn’t remove the glasses from his face as they had melted onto his nose and ears.

    Dr David Sharpe – founder of the plastic surgery and burns research unit, Bradford University

    The most common injuries were to the back of the hands and scalps. Heat radiating down from the roof hit people weren’t wearing hats and were protecting their heads with their hands. We reckoned 80 needed surgery…we had four theatres going with four plastic surgeons per theatre…we got through the 80 pretty well on time…money was given to us after the disaster…and we eventually set up the Plastic Surgery and Burns Research Unit PSBRU

    Mark Lawn – Bradford City joint owner

    It took a tragedy like this to change things for the better….there was a sea-change between the fans and the clubs in 1985 which was when football hooliganism and football-related violence was at its peak…City became more of a family oriented club…

    Stefan Krolak, survivor

    ..Tarpaulin fell on them and stuck to their clothes and then ignited. I saw one man lying on the ground, burning from head to foot. There was hardly anything left of him.

    [There follows an article all about Heysel, 18 days later…]

    Peter Jackson also gave an interview to Issue 40, November/December 2014.

    ..on the way home…As I approached [Bradford Royal Infirmary] I could see people sitting on the walls outside with bandages on their hands and faces.. I walked into the accdent and emergency unit and I just could not believe the number of people in there with burns. It was horrendous, it really was. The smell of the hospital, the smell of burnt flesh

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by xileffilex.
    • This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by xileffilex.
    #417752
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    xile said :

    At 7:02 notice the match referee coming up behind the Liverpool captain at speed, and patting him gently on the bottom, a curious way to say ‘everyone off’.

    Says quite a lot doesn’t it ? The policeman strolling in the background and the referee smacking the Captain’s bottom?
    I would suggest this is very strong evidence for it being a real game, at least!

    DalTampra

    #417753
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    He told me he couldn’t remove the glasses from his face as they had melted onto his nose and ears.

    Is this remotely likely ?

    How hot do your glasses need to be, before you take them off ?
    Melting hot ?

    Probably not.

    The own goal at the end of this clip, involving Grobbelaar and Whelan is unmissable and impossible to fake.

    You’re being sarcastic, I take it, xilef ?
    To fake a goal of that nature exactly like that would be impossible, but to
    have an agent as Captain and an absolutely notorious football fixer as a goalkeeper, you’ve gotta suspect he might well have meant that one.

    DalTampra

    #417800
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    tefan Krolak, survivor

    ..Tarpaulin fell on them and stuck to their clothes and then ignited. I saw one man lying on the ground, burning from head to foot. There was hardly anything left of him.

    haha! Pathetic, particularly when you consider it takes hours to burn a body in a furnace.
    How long was this guy allowed to lie there burning until there was ‘hardly anything left of him’ ?!

    DalTampra

    #417983
    xileffilex
    Participant

    You’re being sarcastic, I take it, xilef ?

    Well, it was perfectly hit [in the wrong direction] but Grob didn’t seem to jump very high, rather he just seemed to fall over backwards.

    Melting hot?

    No but we’re getting warm though.

    #417984
    xileffilex
    Participant

    That Stefan Krolak quote is an old one, a key “witness” in 1985
    http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/1985/may/13/fromthearchive

    May 13 1985

    Superintendent Barry Osborne, divisional commander for the football club area, who was injured in the fire said that many policemen cried when they saw how badly people had been burned.

    He saw smoke coming from a small area of the stand and thought that someone had let off a flare. ‘The smoke was very, very dense. I ran to the stand and tried to help people escape. The flames suddenly appeared and the whole roof took alight,’ he said.

    People were clambering over the wall on to the ground with their clothes and hair on fire. The heat inside the stand literally ignited people where they stood.

    One elderly man started to walk across the pitch with his clothes and face ablaze. People pushed him to the ground and tried to smother the flames. One man in tears said: ‘He looked as if he was just going for a stroll. He was completely on fire and it looked as though he simply did not know what had happened to him.’

    Mr Stefan Krolak, a survivor from Bradford , said he saw the smoke start a few seats away from him ‘The smoke seemed suddenly to set on fire. People were falling on to each other and screaming.

    ‘They did not have a chance. Tarpaulin fell on them and stuck to their clothes and then ignited. I saw one man lying on the ground, burning from head to foot. There was hardly anything left of him.’

    One woman was seen running around the ground with no skin on her arms and face. She was hysterical and trying to find her three children. The team’s coach, Mr Terry Yorath, ran on to the pitch to try to help people away from the stand. ‘It is the worst day in my life. The whole fire seemed to erupt in seconds,’ he said.

    Mr Antony Burrows said: ‘One man was stood near me with his hair on fire. There were no fire extinguishers. I had to put my jumper over his hair to put the blaze out.

    The melted spectacles story emerged at the BBC in 2005
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/b/bradford_city/4506047.stm

    The above page links to other “witness” reports
    This one caught my eye as being particularly improbable:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/b/bradford_city/4517317.stm
    Matthew Wildman, 17

    “I looked down at my hands and they were bubbling like melting cheese, so I thought, it’s all or nothing.”

    Matthew dived over the wall and was about to smash into the terrace when he was caught by David Hustler, a man he keeps in touch with to this day.

    “That was the first time David saved me,” Matthew continued.

    “I was really badly burned from head to foot and put on a stretcher to be taken to the waiting ambulances on Midland Road.”


    Melted cheese, burned from head to foot and he’s diving like Drogba

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by xileffilex.
    #593833
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    PRINCE WILLIAM, DAVID CAMERON, TOM HANKS AND ASTON VILLA

    fd

    ‘Prepared’ is right! That’s real control.

    Football (soccer) continues unabated as a fixture of the back pages of all the newspapers here in the UK. I’d say about 90 percent of males would claim to support a football team. It’s powerful, no doubt. It’s THE sport of the masses and as such, is naturally
    all under control.

    The yearly league results are decided years in advance.
    In this way things can all be tied-in to the narrative.

    With football being the game of the common man it makes sense that a young British Royal Prince should be seen to have some interest in the sport.
    In Prince Williams case, we’re told he’s an Aston Villa supporter.
    ds
    We know he doesn’t really give a shit about the sport and is a rugby man, but he has to pretend ( http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/watch-prince-william-reveal-supports-5778761 )
    And the ‘P.R team’ gave him Aston Villa to support.

    Oh yeh… Aston Villa are one of the oldest and most successful clubs who were the originators and founder members of the Football League in 1888. In 2006 full control was acquired by American businessman Randy Lerner.
    At the moment they languish firmly at the bottom of the top league and face almost certain relegation. Still, Williams slightly clumsy alignment that he’s clearly been given, is notable.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Villa_F.C.

    Next puppet up who clumsily says that they’re a Villa supporter is David Cameron – Prime Minister. Mmm I remember those heady days of a young Tony Blair expressing his allegiance to Newcastle United, just as he was sweeping to his celebrated Labour victory of 1997 and the very working-class-aligned football team was enjoying their most successful period of recent years and were everybody’s favourite second club. Handy that Tony, good PR, makes sense.
    Anyway, David Cameron’s team (that he sometimes can’t even remember he’s been told he supports http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/cameron-west-ham-aston-villa-5579303 ) is Villa.

    It’s all a bit clumsy, but Cameron is a Villa supporter, yeah, an old power in English football.

    It was when I came across this image of Tom Hanks the other day and I found my third prominent figure who seems to be making a clumsy effort to show his allegiance to Villa, did I really start to think, there’s really something in this and there’s real plans.
    http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/hollywood-star-tom-hanks-aston-villa-full-c-players-243654

    Hanks made a big show of his apparent allegiance to Villa on the red carpet at the premiere of the film Charlie Wilson’s war.
    ( ”Wilson is best known for leading Congress into supporting Operation Cyclone, the largest-ever Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) covert operation which, under the Carter and Reagan administration, supplied military equipment including …surface-to-air antiaircraft missiles and paramilitary officers from their Special Activities Division to the Afghan Mujahideen during the Soviet war in Afghanistan. ”)
    That trail leads back to the birth of Al Qaeda.This is Military Intelligence Hollywood and Hanks is a player.

    fd

    Currently languishing at the bottom of the English Premier League, I can see a drop and then a rebirth and future success for Aston Villa.
    With rules having changed, the next election in the UK is set for 7th May 2020.
    Cameron has said he won’t run, but regardless, I can see a third Conservative term along with a Villa Premier League win that year. Cameron’s little bit of reflected glory could be played on in the run-up to the election.

    So, Tom’s long range ‘tips’ ( for the sport ) for tonight. A little double.

    May 2020. The Conservatives win most seats at the Uk General election and Aston Villa win the league.

    DalTampra

    #593882
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    Sorry. I see the above post as not very cohesive. I’m out of practice.

    To summarise, I see three very prominent public figures, directly connected to the establishment who conspicuously express an allegiance to Aston Villa.

    The only real way I this can see this reference being used to good effect, is with Aston Villa winning the league at some point.

    2020 makes sense to me based on the timing of the key UK Elections of that year.
    Why was Cameron given Villa to support if the reference won’t be made during his time in office ?

    May 2020 might be perfect.

    DalTampra

    #644180
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    Back to Hillsborough. 27 years on and still rumbling as reported by BBC today.
    Two years of evidence over with phew!, the jurors have been deliberating since April 6th as to whether to return a verdict of unlawful killing.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-36127689

    There’s one of those montages of the victims along with small ‘profiles’ at the link.
    These profiles do read a little awkwardly poignant.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26765007

    Of one 15 year old, we hear tear jerkingly -” his sister Sara said. He was very close to his mother Anne Williams who became a leading Hillsborough campaigner before her death in 2012.” ( the conjecture is then offered )” “It wouldn’t surprise me at all if Kevin’s last word was ‘Mum.’ ”

    ”Stuart Thompson, an apprentice joiner from Liverpool, travelled with his brother, Martin Thompson, and friends, all of whom survived. He was one of six children, who loved animals and once kept a ferret under his bed without telling his Mum. “Stuart had the world at his feet,” said Martin.”
    I don’t know about the world at his feet, he certainly had a ferret at the foot of his bed.

    ”Victoria Jane Hicks, 15 was the youngest girl to die. She travelled with her older sister, Sarah Louise Hicks, who also died. Mr Hicks said his daughters argued “but would defend each other to the death, literally as it turned out.””

    Crikey! It’s so bad, it might be real!

    Here are some of the members of the Hillsborough Justice campaign group.
    Familiarly, this picture is the same one that they use for the memorial montage.

    wq

    They’re holding up a photograph of victim Thomas Ian Glover 20 , a ” street paver from Liverpool, He was one of six children and his sister, Lorraine Glover, told the inquest “we were just like the Waltons.” She said Ian’s clothes are still hanging up in his bedroom in the family home. ”
    Thomas Glover’s clothes are apparently still hanging up in his bedroom, but they didn’t bring a different photograph, they brought a nice laminated version of the one we always see in the media.

    The same with this one.

    fd

    DalTampra

    #644231
    xileffilex
    Participant

    An interesting spread of ages of the alleged victims, Tom. There seems to be a marked absence of the older fan, and of those perhaps less likely to survive an incident like that purported to have occurred. A large preponderance of fit youth in other words. I guess older, retired couples tend not to go to footie matches together, preferring beach holidays around the Med.

    #644660
    Vespadouglas
    Participant

    Imo the Aston Villa angle is a neutrality thing . Man Utd , Chelsea , Tottenham etc , , all in their own way , carry a fair bit of baggage .The “spin doctor” choice , of Aston Villa is a clever move .
    It’s not a London team and I think that is very deliberate .

    VD XXXIII

    #644754
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    Yeah, well said Vespa. I read that post back yesterday and did cringe at myself, a bit.
    It works perfectly well as you describe, without the need for any specifically planned on-field success.

    An alignment with football for these figures is good P.R. whatever, and Aston Villa provides a neutral, unpretentious, strong, old, football presence, in the middle of England. Solid for the public image.

    I think that making specific predictions about sporting results is a very tricky area.
    I’ve talked a little about betting on sporting events on the basis of ‘alternative research’ on audio and in my Aston Villa post above I said ”Tom’s Tips”.

    I think I should be wary of getting carried away with imaginative speculation based on things that could be being arranged. It can be an enticing idea to call the fix but to give specific ‘tips’ is probably not a good idea.

    DalTampra

    #645798
    Vespadouglas
    Participant

    AA few months ago I told people that I ddidn’t think Leicester FC would be allowed tto win the EPL . You are not alone !

    VD XXXIII

    #646109
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    ds

    This photograph from The Daily Mail today, of Hillsborough victim Vicky Hicks who is said to have died alongside her sister that day, looks too bad to be true. What’s with the comma over her eye, the ‘flash’ on her nose and her ‘flaming’ lips? Presumably it’s some kind of reproduction glitch, but wouldn’t that be sorted out before it went to print?
    Respect for the dead and all that. It seems a bit odd to me.

    Sarah and Vicky’s father Trevor Hicks, has been a key player in the 27 year ‘battle for justice ‘.

    He seemed happy yesterday.
    fd

    The Daily Mail article also has two black and white images of the girls.

    ds

    The girls look fairly straight faced in these pictures. Couldn’t their parents have provided happier looking ones for the press?

    27 years and finally ‘Justice’.
    Trevor Hicks said yesterday – ‘No matter who you are, how big you are, or where you are in your organisation, the public will come after you if you do anything wrong.’

    This fallacy, of course, serves real power well.

    fd

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3557885/Harrowing-evidence-given-families-told-tragedy-96-victims.html

    DalTampra

    #646111
    xileffilex
    Participant

    The Daily Mail catches the Hillsborough timbre nicely
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3558745/Hillsborough-inquests-jury-deliver-verdict.html

    I just dipped into the familiar [in modern hoaxes] chessboard of victims the other day and picked up one to investigate and blow me, the alleged victim not only has a non-standard story but also has a prominent mouthpiece to support the story and fight for justice…which naturally will continue for months and years ahead to the delight, no doubt, of the legal profession.

    How many times do we see the phrase “loved ones” in the Mail piece?

    This paragraph caught my eye

    Margaret Aspinall has criticised the face that grieving families had to fund their own legal action – and even pay for the death certificate from the original inquest – while the police had all of their legal fees funded for them.

    I was under the impression that all death certificates had to be paid for…
    e.g.
    http://www.cumbria.gov.uk/registrationservice/deaths/cost.asp

    You may need to purchase copies of the death certificate. Each certificate is a certified copy of the entry in the Death Register and costs £4.00 at the time of registration, or £7 at a later date.

    I understand some, perhaps all, relatives e.g.the same Margaret Aspinall in the Mail video, refused to the death certificates after the 1991 inquest, after which the deaths were recorded, because they refused to accept the verdict. Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn’t the certificate show the cause of death which in these cases would not be provided on the interim death certificate which is issued to allow a funeral to take place? Does a death certificate issued after an inquest include the verdict? Or does it merely state the cause of death?

    https://www.bereavementadvice.org/topics/death-certificate-and-coroners-inquest/coroners-inquests

    At the close of the inquest the coroner forwards information to the registrar of births and deaths to allow the death to be registered and the family can then purchase death certificates from the registrar

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-18635254
    September 12 2012

    Margaret Aspinall never received a death certificate for her son James, who was killed at Hillsborough, because she refused to accept the inquest verdict written on it – accidental death.

    The Andrew Devine story was reported in 1997
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/hillsborough-survivor-awakes-1275031.html
    It was still rumbling on in 2014
    with the customary photo
    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-survivor-andrew-devine-who-6988427

    On April 15, 2014, the now 47-year-old remains confined to a wheelchair, unable to speak and able to eat only puréed food – though, despite having seen more than his fair share of hospital wards, he lives in the family home with his devoted parents.

    Oddly the photo accompanying the article is a very poor one dated 2006!

    #646557
    Tom Dalpra
    Participant

    fd

    That really looks weird, doesn’t it ? In 2014 they were holding up a mugshot of Andrew from the wedding day photo shoot from 2006 ; 8 years previously ? No other pictures ?
    Hey, the guy’s still alive. Why not show us a contemporary picture of him, the star of the piece? It certainly looks awkward, whatever the reason.

    The detail ” His dad, retired police inspector Stanley”, jumped out at me.

    And this passage perhaps serves as an excuse for his, perhaps-handy low profile.

    They also dismiss any idea of Andrew having been “forgotten” outside the family, with Wendy stressing: “He’s not been forgotten. It’s just that people don’t know, and part of that is because mum and dad decided to stay away from the Press.”

    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-survivor-andrew-devine-who-6988427

    DalTampra

    #647146
    xileffilex
    Participant

    Here’s an image which popped up the other day


    I dare to DREAM @maCrciacarly
    Can’t forget Andrew Devine who was left with severe brain damage after Hillsborough. God Bless You Andrew ??????
    10:35 a.m. – 26 Apr 2016

    Neil Dowling ?@neildowling77 Apr 26
    @marciacarly brother of my friend graham (who is now my lad’s teacher- couldn’t be in better hands!)

    Plus Change.org demand a knighthood for Kenny Dalglish
    https://www.change.org/p/cabinet-office-honours-and-appointments-secretariat-knighthood-for-kenny-dalglish

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 3 months ago by xileffilex.
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