9/11 FOIA Flight Envelopes

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9/11 FOIA Flight Envelopes
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This article is based on the research of Clues Forum proving that on September 11, 2001 the alleged flights AA11, UA93, UA175 and AA77 did in fact not take place. The material presented below are original unedited posts by Hoi Polloi in the Clues Forum.

The 9/11 FOIA Saga

by Hoi Polloi on January 11th, 2010, 9:42 pm

What is a flight manifest?

Official flight manifests are twin copies of the final documents regarding weight of total passengers, crew, fuel on board and so on, signed by the airline captain and put in two places: the airplane itself and the airport from which the plane departed. It would have a final irrefutably "official" passenger list for all the alleged 9/11 flights. If such a document existed, it would override the stupid and inadequate citation in the 9/11 Commission Report even citing correspondence between commissioners as a source of what they guess might be a passenger list — how foolish and pathetic! (See lower post: viewtopic.php?p=2216787#p2216787 for some official citation.) Which terrorist agency is supposed to have ran away with the flight envelopes containing the manifests?


A call to the FAA

When I was first introduced to the world of the researchers by Simon Shack, who had already done some scouting ahead, as it were, we would occasionally chat about various odd behaviors of officials and what we could do to get a straight answer. So after a few years of casual research and gaining confidence, and with September Clues fairly fresh in my mind, I got to thinking that this would actually be a pretty good idea. (Update: I called the FAA about the flight envelopes as early as 2008 or 2009.) Anyway, the response of the official I spoke with was something like this: No airplane should ever be allowed to take off without doing that paperwork. If any did, the airline would be dissolved by the government immediately and not allowed to fly passengers. I commented that it must be strange that the 9/11 flights never had any flight manifests reported and the official agreed with me; that would be very strange indeed. Then he paused and, as if unable to comprehend such a scenario, insisted: there must be flight manifests. Somewhere. The FAA would have to have them and if not them, some other agency. The fact that the manifests didn't or wouldn't exist was, in short, inconceivable.

I managed to contact another FAA official shortly, and it was determined that all 9/11 data was given to NARA. I confirmed with the airport and the FAA: all 9/11 data.

All. 9/11 data. Was now in the hands of NARA — the National Archives.


FOIA to NARA

Thus began my quest for the 9/11 Flight Manifests, which I hoped would be divulged to the public with my FOIA request. But when I filed the FOIA, NARA replied that — although they were indeed in possession of all 9/11 data — nothing resembling a flight manifest or flight envelope was in their archive.

Borrowing the incredulity of the FAA officials that had convinced me they must exist, I acquired from them a list of all the 9/11 files in their archive (including only short names and descriptions) so that I could hand pick files that may lead me to the ultimate fate of those manifests. They did not want to tell me more information, since they believed that I should know what I'm looking for. A security procedure or obfuscation measure maybe — after all, I can quite rightly be called ignorant for not giving them any further specification about what absolutely should be there. Yet, when I asked for "envelope", "manifest" and "passenger list" files, they said nothing in the archive at all matched those terms.

So, with confidence and a pen, I picked data logs, NORAD/FAA recordings, written documents and anything labeled flight 11, 77, 93, 175, etc. — but without a good way to ask them the actual contents, I defaulted to the principle that more would be better than less at this point. After a long time (the dragging correspondence I had with them is documented in this thread) the files finally were prepared. I had apparently, according to NARA, selected a mishmash of useless, unrelated, and seemingly minimal data describing the bare minimum of alleged "research" done by "officials" in response to the 9/11 drill-that-was-never-an-actually-proven-terrorist-attack. Yet, what choice had they given me? The manifests don't exist, and what they have prepared all barely resembles anything that would be part of an official investigation into the massive conspiracy the government says exists.

And so, ultimately, this bizarre collection has a largely artificial air to it, as if presented by agents dabbling in stretching the truth with forged seals and so on, but not with the experience/intoxication levels of the low level calviphiles that hammered out the official CNN vicsim propaganda. I invite you to take a look at what they claim is a generous sample from "all 9/11 data" supposedly in possession by NARA.

http://www.septclues.com/NARA-FOIA/NW_35023/
(Warning: some sound files are extremely long and dull large and may take some time to tolerate or believe download.)

--- The following is a record of my attempts to acquire flight data about the supposed flights which were allegedly hijacked on 9/11. --- It started with a conversation about the existence of the "envelope" for all flights which leave American airports -- and the sudden realization that apparently nobody else has filed FOIA requests to receive this data ... and thus all the data that would have to list all terrorists and passengers in a final list that could not change. Since one copy goes with the pilot and one stays on the ground, there should have been absolutely no confusion about the passengers as there apparently are.

This is how I filled in their form:


   09/29/2009 01:32
   To:
   _________@FAA
   Subject:
   Request under the Freedom of
   Information Act, 5 U.S.C. 552
   Fee category:
   I request that a copy of the following documents (or documents containing
   the following information) be provided to me:
   I am requesting something known as THE ENVELOPE for the four alleged
   hijacked flights on 9/11. I am specifically looking for a document in this
   envelope, signed by the aircraft Captain on each flight, which contains the
   final passenger manifest,the destination, the amount of fuel on board, the
   names of the pilot and flight attendants, etc., and the time the door of
   the aircraft was closed.
   This document is supposed to be in this envelope when it is handed to the
   chief Flight Attendant, who hands it to a terminal employee. The chief
   flight attendant then closes the door and this document remains on the
   ground in airline custody. It is required by the FAA, and is what is opened
   in case of a crash. Every person on board, including late arrivals or
   supposed hijackers would be accounted for.
   I would like this document for the four apparent flights of AA11, AA77
   (both American Airlines), and UA175 and UA93 (both United Airlines).
   In order to determine my status to assess fees, you should know that my fee
   category is: an individual seeking records for personal use and not for
   profit.
   The maximum dollar amount I am willing to pay for this request is $50.
   Please notify me if the fees will exceed $25.00 or the maximum dollar
   amount I entered.
   I request a waiver of all fees for this request. Specific explanation for
   waiver of fees:
   1. This document may reveal complicity of traitorous factions within our
   government who allowed the crime of 9/11 to take place and protected its
   operants.
   2. This document may reveal names of individuals complicit who have
   positions in our government and who want to undermine the present
   administration.
   3. This document will help the American people understand who was
   responsible for the 9/11 terror event.
   4. The American people may be able, with cooperation of loyal American
   government persons, to oust the traitors and try them for war crimes
   against Americans.
   5. I have no explanation of how this information could be commercially
   exploited. As an important element of the public record, it may appear in
   books or newspapers or magazines. However, the nature of the information
   may be so controversial that no commercial interest will print it.
   Therefore, it is nigh guaranteed that commercial interests are at the
   lowest level possible.
   6. I have no further explanation as to how this information could be
   commercially exploited. I have no commercial interest in this information
   whatsoever, and I think the American people will benefit in social and
   political understanding strictly.
   I request expedited processing of the request and provide a justification
   below. I believe a compelling need exists to warrant expedited processing
   because there is an imminent threat to the life or physical safety of an
   individual.
   Please see above explanations and the reason for expedition should be
   urgently clear.
   Thank you for your consideration of this request.
   Sincerely,
   ________


This was the FAA's first response:


   Mr. ______:
   All Federal Aviation Administration records related to September 11, 2001
   have been sent the National Archives and Records Administration, which now
   has legal custody of the files.
   You may wish to contact NARA at:
   Ms. Martha Wagner Murphy
   Special Access and FOIA Staff (NWCTF)
   National Archives and Records Administration
   8601 Adelphi Road
   College Park, MD 20740-6001
   Please let us know if you will withdraw your request to the FAA.
   Thank you
   Joann
   FOIA Program Office
   202-267-7950


Just in case I misread, I sent this response:


   I will submit the request to the FAA in case anything comes out of it.
   It seems organizations in our government are sometimes unwilling to
   talk to one another about this issue.
   I will also send a new request to NARA and forward this e-mail to them.
   Thank you so much for your help!
   Sincerely,
   ________


which was responded to:


   The FAA does not have any records -- all records were sent to NARA, who now has legal custody of the records.


But just to be completely Kafka-esque, I ventured:


   I understand. Is there any further this request can go in the FAA, please?
   Thank you so much!


And finally received this seemingly definitive response:


   Mr. ______:
   Sorry, but there is no other office involved in the 9/11 issue. One office
   collected all records on the 9/11 hijackings. On September 14, these FAA
   records were officially transferred to NARA. All requests for 9/11 records
   are to be sent to NARA at the address provided to you in an earlier email.
   Thank you
   FAA FOIA office


So, I thanked them for their time and continued my pursuit at NARA. Then, a separate request specifically to NARA:


   Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:58:56
   Subject: FOIA Request
   To: foia@nara.gov
   National Archives,
   I have been referenced your office by the FAA, and I have forwarded ahead of this e-mail the response I received from them in regards to this request. In that response, I was told that all information pertaining to 9/11 was transfered to your offices. Presumably, the information I have submitted a request for is regarded by the FAA as pertaining to 9/11. So I am now submitting the request to you. I am asking that a copy of the following documents (or documents containing the following information) be provided to me:

Some weeks passed, and I received a physical envelope with the message that my request has been processed and I could seek updates at an e-mail address at NARA.

My requests to that address have thus far yielded no response whatsoever.

Last edited by hoi.polloi on May 22nd, 2016, 5:17 am, edited 10 times in total. Reason: adding links on first post

Hoi Polloi's Request letter

by hoi.polloi on September 13th, 2010, 9:31 pm

Okay, I have significantly lightened the tone. Here is my request:

   NARA c/o Mr. David G. Paynter,
   I have just received your letter dated August 30, 2010. Thank you for writing about this crucial issue. I am pleased that you have offered to pursue the case further and for offering to send me the file referenced (a copy of the directory). Please send me that document. I am sorry that you failed to find what I am seeking. I was expecting the persons assigned to address my case would be knowledgeable about FAA and DOT matters and would be able to find documentation of the load manifest outside of any particular FAA hard drive, or a flight log that would certainly have been permanently stored in the NARA records by well within the end of 2001 for security and historical purposes.
   It has been almost a year since my request was filed and, in that time, no final passenger list has been acquired for any of the four flights. In fact, none has been released since September 11, 2001 or ever. The new information you have given me is that no relevant information to my FOIA request regarding passengers on September 11, 2001 can be located within FAA or NARA documentation. After 9 years, no final list of passenger deaths can be agreed upon by our countrymen and countrywomen. This is a patriotic conundrum. How is it that we still don't know who did or did not die on 9/11? Hopefully you appreciate the importance of my FOIA request.
   Although you mention searching for some of the terms I requested, you did not mention searching for any passenger lists or flight loads. You also are asking me to provide you with official terminology for the term "the envelope" or a load manifest form. I cannot provide serial numbers; I do not know them. I assure you that a load is always documented and retained for several months after every flight. Today, a load manifest or preflight load report must be retained 12 full months after the flight. If NARA failed to collect and store this document during the time of its allowed existence, we might presume it officially never existed or is of no interest to the government's investigation of 9/11, which is a deeply disturbing concept.
   I urge you to help me find all related flight documentation attached to my request. The load manifests must remain on the ground, at the airport. Perhaps your search would be easier if you went to http://www.faa.gov and examined section 665 of the FAA's required FARS documents, specifically on "Load manifests".
   In your letter, it seems I was given the following choices:
   1. You stay on as my remote researcher with the amount of information you have identified as relevant to my request
   2. I appeal to the Deputy Archivist to address my request (by October of this year)
   Since you have outlined these for me, I would like to make both choices. Please pursue this public document. Please send me the file you have offered so we can proceed. While you are working on that, I can appeal to the Deputy Archivist to do their own search for 'the envelope' as you have offered. Then we will have more than one NARA employee on this important matter.
   If you cannot find a final domestic passenger manifest or load manifest in the FAA, DOT or NARA's collection, or you lose the trail, please reference another office that my FOIA request can be sent to.
   Thank you very much.
   Cordially,
   Mr. _____________

9/11 Commission Report Summary Findings for the four hijacked flights

by Hoi Polloi on September 19th, 2010, 5:55 pm

While that goes out there, undoubtedly to be ignored at NARA for another year, I thought I would take a look at the documentation Mr. Paynter recommended I examine - namely, the 9/11 Commission Report's summary of findings for the four hijacked flights, which they refer to as a Staff Monograph(?!?)

The list of the flight passengers is summarized in the September 12, 2005 version in the following way:

AA11

   The aircraft had a capacity of 158 passengers: 9 seats in first class, 30 in business class, and 119 in coach.[35] On September 11, the flight carried 81 passengers (including the 5 terrorists) with 2 pilots and 9 flight attendants, for a total of 92 people on baord.
   All 9 of the first-class seats were occupied, 2 of them by hijackers Waleed al Shehri and Wail al Shehri. Nineteen of the 30 seats in business class were occupied (49 percent), 3 by hijackers Atta, Omari, and Suqami.[36] Fifty-three of the 119 coach seats were occupied (44 percent), none of them by hijackers.


UA175

   The aircraft had a capacity of 168 passengers: 10 in first class, 33 in business class, and 125 in coach. The flight carried 56 passengers (including 5 hijackers) with 2 pilots and 7 flight attendants, for a total of 65 people on board.
   Nine of the 10 first-class seats were occupied, including 2 by hijackers Banihammad and Mohand al Shehri. Eleven of the 33 business-class seats were occupied, 3 by hijackers Shehhi, Hamza al Ghamdi, and Ahmed al Ghamdi; and 36 of the 125 coach seats were occupied, none by hijackers.[137]


AA77

   The aircraft had a capacity of 176 passengers, 22 in first class and 154 in coach. On September 11, 2001, the flight carried 58 passengers (including 5 hijackers) with 2 pilots and 4 flight attendants for a total of 64 people on baord. Fifteen of the 22 first-class seats were occupied, 3 by hijackers. Forty-three of the 154 economy seats aboard were occupied, 2 by hijackers.[233]


UA93

   On September 11, 2001, the flight carried 37 passengers (including 4 hijackers) with two pilot [could they mean 'pilots'? - hp] and 5 flight attendants for a total of 44 people on board.
   Ten passengers were seated in first class, including all four of the hijackers; the other 27 were in coach. There was no business class on Flight 93.[303]


The following - as bizarre as these "references" are - are all that are given for the various ways these compilations were written up with "citation" but without any apparent use of a load manifest document:

References 36 [ONLY reference given for passenger seating for AA11]

   AAL Record "Passenger Name List Flight 11/September 11", undated.


137 [ONLY reference given for passenger seating for UA175]

   FAA report, "Executive Summary Chronology of a Multiple Hijacking Crisis, September 11, 2001," September 17, 2001; UAL report, Flight 175, Flight Data Recap; UAL response to Commission questions for the record, May 13, 2004.


233 [ONLY reference given for passenger seating for AA77]

   Wednesdays were the next lowest at 40.3 percent. AAL report,"Average Load Factor by Day-of-Week," undated (for Flights 11 and 77 from June 11, 2001 to Sept. 9. 2001); and AAL report, email response from Christopher R. Christensen to Commission questions for the record, January 20, 2004.


303 [ONLY reference given for passenger seating for UA93]

   UAL response to Commission questions for the record, April 5, 2004.


In other words, no AAL Record or document named "Passenger Name List Flight 175/September 11" or any flight besides AA11 seems to have been written up for them to reference. The reference given for AA77 appears to be a "gaff" in which the reference for the load percentage paragraph that follows the passenger seating breakdown is conveniently confused as a reference for the latter! Slick. Reminds me of the CNN pages that would skip vicsims when you clicked "next". As for flight 93, its reference given for the passenger seating is the same citation given for the previous two citations. That's some boring interview! (I imagine it went something like this, "So United Airlines ... uh ... how many passengers would you say are normally on this flight compared to how many were on during the terrorist hijackings of September 11, 2001 now known as Patriot Day? More passengers usually? Or perhaps it was fewer passengers? Take your time in answering ... I see. Well that was our main concern. Would you say this is slightly more or a lot more? Hm. Hm. Great. Well I guess we have one more question ... you know ... to satisfy those liberal weirdos out there. Could you tell us how many terrorists had purchased first class tickets? One? Two? Okay. Great. Well, I guess we're done with this interview ... what? Load manifests? Do we want to see them? I don't know what you're talking about. Get out of my office!")


This pathetic document must be seen to be believed! This crass excuse for a fake 'declassified' pile of poorly strung-together lies is astoundingly insulting to our intelligence as information consumers. http://archives.gov/legislative/research/9-11/

Official Commission References For Passenger Numbers

by [[Hoi Polloi]] on December 10th, 2010, 1:10 am

It has been noted that the four apparently fictional flights were composed of the unlikely number sequence honoring some kind of sanctity for the "11" number:

11....11 93....9+3=12 175...1+7+5=13 77....7+7=14

...but did you know that the official take-off time ranges for these flights are - chronologically - in that very order?

AA11 @ 7:45 - 7:59 UA93 @ 7:xx - 8:01 UA175 @ x:xx - 8:14 AA77 @ x:xx - 8:20

11 - 12 - 13 - 14 HOW CONTRIVED CAN YOU GET?

It is extremely bad if a company doesn't answer the FAA requirement for a manifest for each and every flight. It is "more than frowned upon" according to my conversation with an FAA official. Combined with the idea that these very alleged flights somehow got into an accident that is supposed to have had weight play an integral part of the accident story (thin aluminum inexplicably barging through thick steel structures) the companies responsible would have to face some kind of negligence fees beyond any previously known. American Airlines and United Airlines would have to have copies of the manifests that the FAA don't. If not them, the NTSB.

However - a single office - NARA - collected all the 9/11 data in the country according to the FAA.

The facts that NARA cannot turn up any documents of the load manifests in the FAA, and that they don't have any 9/11 documents for American Airlines or United Airlines, and that they seem to be strongly delaying their response to my FOIA for the documents in the FAA archive that can lead to more clues ... all tell me there are no such documents in existence unless they are amongst the government Commission documents not subject to FOIA.

If they are in the government Commission documents, then why does the Commission cite four wildly varied sources other than flight manifests for their numbers?

Official Commission References For Passenger Numbers

   AAL Record "Passenger Name List Flight 11/September 11", undated.
   FAA report, "Executive Summary Chronology of a Multiple Hijacking Crisis, September 11, 2001," September 17, 2001; UAL report, Flight 175, Flight Data Recap; UAL response to Commission questions for the record, May 13, 2004.
   email response from Christopher R. Christensen to Commission questions for the record, January 20, 2004.
   UAL response to Commission questions for the record, April 5, 2004.


And why do the lists of supposed dead fail to produce consistent numbers? Of any of the names listed as passengers, why do their pictures resemble computer generated, fictional persons and why do only four of the names attached to such poor simulations of people actually connect to a Social Security number in the SSDI?

And why were all the videos of the airplane crashes FAKED - and faked so many times and from so many 3-D angles that the number of proffered chance videographers boggles the imagination? (Not to mention each and every one of their amazingly coincidental connections to the professional media world that is saturated with special effects.)

It is easy to assume from all this that such magical, bureaucracy-dodging airplanes with overly insistent videos of impossible physics and fuzzy, nebulous passengers that don't even take up the capacity of the airplane models alleged to be those that crashed ... mean to tell us THE "HIJACKED" 9/11 AIRPLANES AND THEIR PASSENGERS ARE ENTIRELY FICTIONAL AND BARELY EXIST ON PAPER.

Now, ask yourself: why exactly would there have to be a vast international conspiracy to tell us all this after it took us 9 years to deduce? Those are some pretty ballsy psychic perps if we were "meant" to figure this out as some have alleged!

FOIA Special Access NARA

by Hoi Polloi on October 30th, 2012, 5:04 pm

Simon, I want to clarify for you - and update everyone on - the subject of my quest for answers.

To review, since receiving the mountain of papers and sifting through all the data collected, I selected a number of files that I wanted sent to me and submitted the request before New Year's Day 2011. This was my message sent Tuesday, November 23, 2010 4:51:45 AM

   To: FOIA Special Access NARA,
   I was forwarded your e-mail by Mr. DAVID G. PAYNTER, Archivist at NARA in response to my FOIA request number #33067 for the flight manifests of the 9/11 airplanes. He failed to find any files responsive to my request and said I could instead request files that looked right to me. He sent a print out of the FAA hard drive index to locate files responsive to my request. After a search of the FAA folder list, I found pieces of communications within the FAA information that are responsive to my request. These are the files that you have in the FAA disks relevant to this FOIA request:
   Agency Box Number 7
   BOS-90 Memorandum
   BOS-91 Memorandum
   Agency Box Number 8
   CLE-90 Letter
   Agency Box Number 11
   IAD-83 Interviews
   Agency Box Number 47
   ZID-319 Email
   ZID-332 Email
   ZID-337 Email
   Agency Box Number 95 - most files
   AWA-371 Document
   and
   all documents AWA-372 through and including AWA-459
   Agency Box Numbers 98 and 99
   AWA-824 Fax
   AWA-825 Fax
   AWA-826 Fax
   AWA-827 Fax
   AWA-828 Fax
   AWA-829 Fax
   AWA-830 Fax
   and
   all documents AWA-998 through and including AWA-1015
   Agency Box Number 110
   AEA-2026 File
   AEA-2027 Article
   AEA-2028 Letter
   AEA-2029 Itinerary
   AEA-2030 Fax Cover Sheet
   AEA-2031 Itinerary
   AEA-2032 Letter
   AEA-2033 Memorandum
   Agency Box Number 111
   AEA-2315 Email
   AEA-2316 Email
   AEA-2324 Email
   AEA-2325 Email
   AEA-2326 Email
   AEA-2327 Email
   AEA-2375 Email
   Agency Box Number 112
   AEA-2580 Email
   Agency Box Number 113
   AEA-3113 Letter
   AEA-3114 Executive Summary
   Agency Box Number 126
   ZNY-2990 911 FOIA Responses
   I am requesting a fee waiver because of my inability to pay more than $50 and because of the potentially dire implications of these findings - i.e.; traitors within high levels of our government.
   Thank you for a timely response. This research has already been delayed a full year because of the time it took for Mr. Paynter's initial response to my request (sent in October 2009). Although it should not be necessary, I hope you will note this is not a political FOIA request; it is a patriotic use of our rights to try to keep democracy alive in our country against those who resent freedom.
   In order to determine my status to assess fees, you should know that my fee category is: an individual seeking records for personal use and not for profit. The maximum dollar amount I am willing to pay for this request is $50. Please notify me if the fees will exceed $25.00 or the maximum dollar amount I entered.
   I request a waiver of all fees for this request. Specific explanation for waiver of fees:
   1. This document may reveal complicity of traitorous factions within our government who allowed the crime of 9/11 to take place and protected its operants.
   2. This document may reveal names of individuals complicit who have positions in our government and who want to undermine the present
   administration.
   3. This document will help the American people understand who was responsible for the 9/11 terror event.
   4. The American people may be able, with cooperation of loyal American government persons, to oust the traitors and try them for war crimes against Americans.
   5. I have no explanation of how this information could be commercially exploited. As an important element of the public record, it may appear in books or newspapers or magazines. However, the nature of the information may be so controversial that no commercial interest will print it. Therefore, it is nigh guaranteed that commercial interests are at the lowest level possible.
   6. I have no further explanation as to how this information could be commercially exploited. I have no commercial interest in this information whatsoever, and I think the American people will benefit in social and political understanding strictly.
   I request expedited processing of the request and provide a justification below. I believe a compelling need exists to warrant expedited processing because there is an imminent threat to the life or physical safety of an individual.
   Please see above explanations and the reason for expedition should be urgently clear.
   Thank you.
   Mr. [_____________]
   __________________
   __________________
   (___) ___ - _____

---

As you may have already read, they initially responded with a denial of a waiver of service fee, for nobody's life was in immediate danger, in their opinion (never we mind the many lives that may have been saved by leaving Iraq and Afghanistan). But I didn't tell you their next update ...

OVER 17 MONTHS LATER ... Earlier this year I received the following response:

   April 18, 2012
   Dear [_____]:
   This is an informal response to your November 24, 2010, Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request (our case number NW 35023) for access to specific Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) files relating to the events of September 11, 2001.
   We have located the requested textual documents. These documents have been digitized electronically as PDF files, so we also have the capability to provide them to you on a CD/DVD. One CD/DVD (containing all of the documents) will cost $15, while the textual documents will cost $.75 (seventy-five cents) per page. The cost of the textual documents will be at least $300.
   Please let me know which format you prefer, and I will prepare a formal response and price quote for you. If you have any questions, please contact me by email at marykay.schmidt@nara.gov or by telephone at 301-837-0596.
   Sincerely,
   MARY KAY SCHMIDT
   Archivist
   Special Access and FOIA Staff


I immediately responded (just a day later) with the following message:

   MARY KAY SCHMIDT,
   Thank you for taking on this project. The CD/DVD option sounds much more practical and logical than a bunch of single printed documents. Please let me know in what format I must pay for this collection.
   Thank you for your response,
   [_____]

---

I received no response OVER 6 MONTHS LATER.

Without any word, and having given them ample time to respond, I decided to send another request out today:

   MARY KAY SCHMIDT,
   Hello, I have waited over 6 months for a response from you. I told you that the CD/DVD format sounded favorable. That is to say: I'd like it. I want to pay for it. Please prepare the formal response and quote.
   This is my second response to your informal response.
   Once again, what monetary format do I use to pay for this collection, and how do I make the payment?
   Regards,
   [________]


NARA, please let your absurdity end! The world deserves to see at least those FOIA documents which you have offered to me!

Hoi Polloi receives an answer - 3 Years later

by hoi.polloi on January 9th, 2013, 3:02 pm

[st]Image[/st] [UPDATE: The original image is gone but here is a newer picture of the same stuff they sent me. -HP]

NARA-response_newpic.jpg

Well, it's finally arrived: NARA's response to my attempt to locate the 9/11 flight envelopes that apparently don't exist. Nothing within these files indicates any further evidence that a Flight Manifest for any of the allegedly existent aircraft was ever a real thing. The only thing that suggests the existence of a Flight Manifest is the sheer lack of them in the face of the other evidence for the airplanes.

But what other evidence is there?

Unfortunately, the evidence of human disappearances associated with the airplane disasters is scant and filled with forensic problems. Besides not being able to nail a final passenger list that can be confirmed by any organization, the strange faces and articles about the victims and their associated family members are highly suspect under forensic scrutiny. Visual evidence for the airplanes is tarnished by the fact that it is computer-generated false imagery. And the physical evidence is apparently non-existent. Much of further record-keeping of these airplanes being flawed, I could only conclude these recordings presented in the FOIA response are part of the military drill simulation occurring during September 11th, 2001, if I were being generous. Or else, they might have been created before the terrorist drill or in the 12-year interim since, but alas we can never know, and I am not convinced that further FOIA requests would net me much more useful information. I would encourage everyone to try and see what else we can get, especially if someone has a hunch based on this content.

I am ready to conclude I am well in over my head, as far as understanding these files, but they appear to be useless. Based on the index given to me many many months ago (which I had to more-or-less blindly select from based on file title alone) I did my best to request files that looked pertinent to the search for lists and interviews (as such terms seemed to be the primary citations for passenger lists in the Commission Report) but it seems I failed to hit a vein of anything plausible. Instead, the titles I requested mostly appear to be minor requests and memos and note-pad transcriptions for lists and interviews not available at NARA or anywhere. A Kafka-esque comedy of onion layers. Where are any of the results of these notes and memos I've received in this FOIA response? Potentially, presumably, locked up forever in FBI or CIA case files should they even be real evidence of a real core to the layers. It seems increasingly possible all there is is a kind of skin of paperwork with no true structure beneath it.

As for the bulk of the response, the air traffic "roger roger" kind of recordings, they are very long and boring and have little to do with my research, but for the sake of presenting the entire thing to the public untarnished and unedited as NARA sent it to me, here is the full 14-gigabyte index:

[st]http://www.cluesforum.info/NARA/[/st] [UPDATE May 21, 2016: We were forced to move hosts and lost the first upload of this massive thing. Finally re-uploaded to SeptClues.com. It can now be found at the link below. -HP] http://www.septclues.com/NARA-FOIA/

Please bear in mind both the length of time since September 11th and the 3-year span since my initial request began processing somewhere in NARA's cogs. We have no idea when any of these documents were created, nor the length their creators might go to present the appearance of a thorough and functioning bureaucracy. Hence, I think it's safe to take all of it with a hefty bag of salt. Just don't clog your arteries if something within hits a false note with you.

---

In the following file: http://cluesforum.info/NARA/20121228_1143/NW_35023/3.%20%20AAL%2011/(e)%20%20Other/3%20AWA%20424%20List%20Defense%20Discovery%20Requests.pdf

There is a list of investigation items that I would sincerely love to have in my possession to share with the public, and for which there mostly seems to be no available evidence for. e.g.; official passenger manifests, official crew list details, recorded land line calls from airplanes, drawings/schematics of wreckage distribution, etc., etc. among a number of other requests that a real investigation should have warranted. On number 12, the requested evidences for the hijackers, it is highly interesting to note just how little of this evidence seems to even be in the dialogue of possibilities, let alone existent. This document kind of opened my eyes to the incredible flimsiness of the official record for the official story. It's right; this should be the bare minimum of documentation - much of it public - for such an event if it were remotely real and historic fact. The dearth speaks volumes more than a hundred FOIA requests for the same.

---

Little else hits "CBS" and "Pat DeLorenzo" (searched from the circled term "CBS Pat DeLorenzo" on one document) but this article: http://www.cbs42.com/content/localnews/ ... x?rss=2272

with a video stamped Sep. 10, 2012. 11:24 PM EDT [1:19]. The web article - about a Birmingham ice rink not seeing enough traffic - included the term "thin ice" and/or this quote from DeLorenzo:

   "If it's sold to us you're going to see more programs. You're going to see more grassroots programs where we're going to start looking to get the kids when they're 6, 7, even maybe younger than that onto the ice," said Pat Delorenzo, Sportsplex of America.


Is "CBS Pat DeLorenzo" a deliberate red herring search term scrawled onto one of these documents in order to subtly indicate: 1. The documents are modern creations that have nothing to do with September 11? 2. Searches into the nature of these documents is "skating on thin ice"?

Or perhaps I am just being imaginative and I've missed a different Pat Delorenzo much more relevant - the average news is sprinkled with ridiculous symbols enough as it is - but then it's a fascinating diversion. At the rate and with the methods they are using to craft artificial evidence for new events, it is not a stretch of the imagination to picture them doing this for FOIA requests. But let's assume the benefit of the doubt for the sheer fact that this FOIA response doesn't seem to say much for or against the official story anyway. At least nothing we can decipher.

If anyone finds I am wrong and there is something worthy of the public's interest in this FOIA response, please post anything interesting from the collection in this thread. Or heck - start your own FOIA request!

What did it contain?

by hoi.polloi on January 12th, 2013, 5:30 pm

This looks like somewhere around 30 hours of audio. I guess it's my responsibility to listen to all of it now that I got it.

All this and no flight manifests.

The Data

by Hoi Polloi on May 21st, 2016, 6:42 pm

Well it turns out "as soon as possible" ended up being a governmently 21 months. Sorry about that.

Not that anyone really cares about browsing this low level propaganda, but in case there is some nugget within, here it is again.

I think some of the more attention-getting documents (be they forged or not) are in this folder in particular:
http://www.septclues.com/NARA-FOIA/NW_35023/5.%20%20Miscellaneous/%28e%29%20%20Other/

In retrospect, I believe what they handed over was some junk NARA was given post-FBI/CIA handling. So it seems NARA only holds the files that the 9/11 Commission Report generated as props for their staged non-investigation. That is, we are left with the theater tools but not the credits.

Not a very convincing play by the hoaxers.

The Alleged Four Flights are Not Documented

by simonshack on May 21st, 2016, 9:48 pm

Thanks so much for all your hard work, Hoi.

What all this comes down to - of course (and very, very simply put) is that:

THERE EXISTS NO OFFICIAL PAPERWORK DOCUMENTING THE VERY EXISTENCE OF THE ALLEGED FOUR FLIGHTS WHICH, REPORTEDLY, CRASHED ON 9/11.

Therefore, dear Cluesforum readers, if ANYONE ever asks you the following question (which I have been asked countless times over the years):

"If no planes crashed on 9/11 - what happened to the actual flights and passengers which, we were told, disappeared on that day ?"

Your informed /knowledgeable answer should be:

There is NO official / bureaucratic record of the very existence of those flights. Something which does not exist - cannot disappear. Please read "The 9/11 FOIA SAGA" over at Cluesforum.info > viewtopic.php?f=22&t=94

Brianv's pioneering early research into the flight data

by hoi.polloi on October 7th, 2016, 1:14 am

brianv's pioneering early research into the flight data is reproduced here, taken from his original posts at LetsRoll (link below) http://letsrollforums.com//showpost.php?p=50549

On a hunch, I tried to search for the name "Titus Davidson" which was a "lost" 9/11 vicsim on flight 11, no longer listed elsewhere. Weirdly, there is another Titus — but used as a last name for a vicsim credited on the flight 175 list: Alicia [N.] Titus

Not sure about such high chances for the interesting name "Titus", which may have been the reason they deleted the vicsim "Titus Davidson" from the CNN memorial list of flight 11 vicsims, and why (suddenly retired) David Butler of the Boston Globe cannot tell us anything about that list he received, to copy for the article graphic. If Titus Davidson was simply "removed", it points once more to the concept that the entire database of names is a fiction with modular and somewhat arbitrary playing pieces to move around for purposes of propaganda story telling.

brianv's posts:

   SSA and Public Records, Death Records from all Flights
   Before I start I think it's worth pointing out, that I'm not claiming this to be absolute facts, these are the results of querying the names of crew and passengers against the Death Records Public Records SSA Master Death File Database, by name and state combination and where no state is available all states were used.
   http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/tra...1.victims.html
   AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 11
   American Airlines Flight 11, from Boston, Massachusetts, to Los Angeles, California, crashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center with 92 people on board.
   We are minus 4 on this list, CNN claim 92 were on board yet only print 88 names.
   CREW
   1. John Ogonowski, 52, of Dracut, Massachusetts, was the pilot of Flight 11. He lived on a 150-acre farm north of Boston. He is survived by his wife, Margaret, and three daughters, Laura, 16; Caroline, 14; and Mary, 11. A lifelong aviation buff, he joined the Air Force after graduating from college and flew planes at the close of the Vietnam War. He joined American Airlines in 1979. [1 RECORD]
   2. First Officer Thomas McGuinness, 42, of Portsmouth, New Hampshire, was Flight 11's co-pilot. He is survived by his wife, Cheryl, and a 14-year-old son and 16-year-old daughter. He was active in Bethany Church in Greenland, New Hampshire, friends and neighbors told The Boston Globe. Rick DeKoven, a church administrator, described him as "a devoted family man." [NO RECORD]
   3. Barbara Arestegui, 38, was a flight attendant from Marstons Mills, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   4. Jeffrey Collman was a flight attendant. [NO RECORD]
   5. Sara Low, 28, was a flight attendant from Batesville, Arkansas. [NO RECORD]
   6. Karen Martin was a flight attendant. [55 RECORDS]
   7. Kathleen Nicosia was a flight attendant. [2 records, Kate (NY), Kathleen (unknown)]
   9. Betty Ong, 45, was a flight attendant from Andover, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   10. Jean Roger, 24, was a flight attendant from Longmeadow, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   11. Dianne Snyder, 42, was a flight attendant from Westport, Massachusetts. [1 RECORD]
   12. Madeline Sweeney, 35, was a flight attendant from Acton, Massachusetts. [1 RECORD]
   PASSENGERS
   13. Anna Williams Allison, 48, of Stoneham, Massachusetts, was the founder of A2 Software Solutions, a firm that assists companies in software development. Allison had more than 19 years' experience in the software development industry and was a frequent speaker and trainer at national and local conferences. [NO RECORD]
   14. David Angell, 54, of Pasadena, California, was the creator and executive producer of the hit NBC sitcom "Frasier." A native of West Barrington, Rhode Island, Angell entered the Army after graduating from college and served at the Pentagon until 1972. He worked in insurance and engineering before selling a script for a TV series in 1977. In 1983, he joined the TV series "Cheers" as a staff writer and began working with co-supervising producers Peter Casey and David Lee. This team formed a production company, creating and producing "Wings" in 1990 and "Frasier" in 1993. The trio won 24 Emmys. [2 RECORDS CA]
   15. Lynn Angell, 45, of Pasadena, California, was the wife of "Frasier" creator and executive producer David Angell. The Angells were returning from a wedding on the East Coast to attend the Emmy Awards. [NO RECORD]
   16. Seima Aoyama [NO RECORD, US NATIONAL?]
   17. Myra Aronson, 52, of Charlestown, Massachusetts, was a press and analyst relations manager for Compuware Corp. [NO RECORD]
   18 Christine Barbuto, 32, of Brookline, Massachusetts, was a buyer for TJX Cos., the off-price retailer of apparel and home fashions. She was on her way to California on a buying trip. Barbuto is survived her father and two sisters. She had worked for TJX for five years. [NO RECORD]
   19. Berry Berenson, 53, of Los Angeles, California, was an actress and photographer. She was the widow of actor Anthony Perkins, who died in 1992, and sister of actress and model Marisa Berenson. She is survived by two sons, Osgood, an actor, and Elvis. Born into an aristocratic family, Berenson appeared in the movies "Cat People" (1982), "Winter Kills" (1979) and "Remember My Name" (197. [NO RECORD]
   20. Carolyn Beug, 48, of Los Angeles, California, was traveling with her mother, Mary Wahlstrom. They had gone to Boston to drop off relatives at a nearby college and were returning home. [NO RECORD]
   21. Carol Bouchard, 43, of Warwick, Rhode Island, was a Kent County Hospital emergency room secretary. [NO RECORD]
   22. Robin Caplin was from Natick, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   23. Neilie Casey, 32, of Wellesley, Massachusetts, was a merchandise planning manager for TJX Cos., the off-price retailer of apparel and home fashions. She worked for TJX for eight years. Casey is survived by her husband and a 7-month-old daughter.
   [NO RECORD]
   24. Jeffrey Coombs, 42, of Abington, Massachusetts, was a security analyst for Compaq Computer. He is survived by his wife, Christie, and three children, Meagan, 10; Julia, 7; and Matt, 12. [1 RECORD]
   25. Tara Creamer, 30, of Worcester, Massachusetts, was a merchandise planning manager for TJX Cos., the off-price retailer of apparel and home fashions. She had worked for TJX for eight years. Creamer is survived by her husband, John, and two children, Colin, 4, and Nora, 1. [NO RECORD]
   26. Thelma Cuccinello, 71, was a Wilmot, New Hampshire, resident with 10 grandchildren. She was on her way to visit a sister in California. Daughter Cheryl O'Brien gave her mom a ride to catch a bus to Logan International Airport in Boston. "I was the last one to see her," O'Brien said. "I got to kiss her and say 'I love you' and 'Have a nice trip.' " [ 1 RECORD, Thelma R,]
   27. Patrick Currivan [NO RECORD]
   28. Andrew Curry Green was from Chelmsford, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   29. Brian Dale, 43, of Warren, New Jersey, was an accountant and attorney with Blue Capital Management. He was married and the father of three. [NO RECORD]
   30. David DiMeglio was from Wakefield, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   31. Donald Ditullio, 49, was from Peabody, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   32. Albert Dominguez, 66, was a baggage handler for Qantas Airways in Sydney, Australia. He was traveling on holiday at the time of his death. He was married with four children. [NOT INCLUDED]
   33. Alex Filipov, 70, was an electrical engineer from Concord, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   34. Carol Flyzik, 40, was from Plaistow, New Hampshire. [NO RECORD]
   35. Paul Friedman, 45, from Belmont, Massachusetts, was a consultant for Emergence Consulting. [NO RECORD]
   36. Karleton D.B. Fyfe, 31, of Brookline, Massachusetts, was a senior investment analyst for John Hancock. [NO RECORD]
   37. Peter Gay, 54, of Tewksbury, Massachusetts, was a Raytheon Co. vice president of operations for electronic systems based in Andover, Massachusetts. He had worked for Raytheon for more than 28 years. [1 RECORD]
   38. Linda George, 27, of Westboro, Massachusetts, was a buyer for TJX Cos., the off-price retailer of apparel and home fashions. She was on her way to California on a buying trip. George is survived by her father, mother, sister and brother. She was engaged to be married. [2 RECORDS, George Linda, Linda George (MA)]
   39. Edmund Glazer, 41, of Los Angeles, California, was the chief financial officer and vice president of finance and administration of MRV Communications, a Chatsworth, California, firm that focuses on optical components and network infrastructure systems. Glazer was survived by his wife, Candy, and son, Nathan. [NO RECORD]
   40. Lisa Fenn Gordenstein, 41, of Needham, Massachusetts, was an assistant vice president, merchandise manager, for TJX Cos., the off-price retailer of apparel and home fashions. She was on her way to California on a buying trip. Gordenstein is survived by her husband and two children. [NO RECORD]
   41. Paige Farley Hackel, 46, was a spiritual adviser from Newton, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   42. Peter Hashem, 40, was an engineer from Tewksbury, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   43. Robert Hayes, 37, from Amesbury, Massachusetts was a sales engineer with Netstal. [21 RECORDS]
   44. Ted Hennessy, 35, was a consultant for Emergence Consulting in Belmont, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   45. John Hofer [89 RECORDS, all states]
   46. Cora Holland, 52, of Sudbury, Massachusetts, was with Sudbury Food Pantry, an interdenominational program that assisted needy families, at Our Lady of Fatima Church. [2 RECORDS]
   47. Nicholas Humber, 60, of Newton, Massachusetts, was the owner of Brae Burn Management. [1 RECORD, unknown state]
   48. John Jenkins [1497 RECORDS, all states]
   49. Charles Jones, 48, was a computer programmer from Bedford, Massachusetts.
   [57 RECORDS]
   50. Robin Kaplan, 33, of Westboro, Massachusetts, was a senior store equipment specialist for TJX Cos., the off-price retailer of apparel and home fashions. She was on her way to California to help prepare for a new T.J. Maxx store opening. Kaplan had returned to work this year after battling Crohn's disease, a life-threatening inflammatory illness of the gastrointestinal tract. She is survived by her father, Edward Kaplan, and mother, Francine. [ NO RECORD]
   51. Barbara Keating, 72, was from Palm Springs, California. [2 RECORDS, Barbara, Barbara A (CA)]
   52. David Kovalcin, 42, of Hudson, New Hampshire, was a Raytheon Co. senior mechanical engineer for electronic systems in Tewksbury, Massachusetts. He had worked for Raytheon for 15 years. [NO RECORD]
   53. Judy Larocque, 50, of Framingham, Massachusetts, was the founder and CEO of Market Perspectives, a research firm that offers online and on-site surveys. Before founding the company in 1993, she was the principal of Emergent Marketing, an executive marketing consulting firm. [NO RECORD]
   54. Jude Larson, 31, was from Los Angeles, California. [NO RECORD]
   55. Natalie Larson was from Los Angeles, California. [NO RECORD]
   56. N. Janis Lasden, 46, of General Electric was from Peabody, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   57. Daniel John Lee, 34, was from Los Angeles, California. [NO RECORD]
   58. Daniel C. Lewin, 31, was the co-founder and chief technology officer at Akamai Technologies Inc., a Cambridge, Massachusetts, company that produces technology equipment to facilitate online content delivery. He is survived by his wife and two sons. He founded Akamai in 1998 with scientist Tom Leighton and a group of Massachusetts Institute of Technology scientists and business professionals. Lewin was responsible for the company's research and development strategy. [NOT INCLUDED IN SEARCH]
   59. Susan MacKay, 44, of Westford, Massachusetts, was an employee of TJX Cos., the off-price retailer of apparel and home fashions. [1 RECORD]
   60. Chris Mello, 25, was a financial analyst with Alta Communications from Boston. He graduated from Princeton University with a degree in psychology. He is survived by his parents, Douglas and Ellen Mello of Rye, New York; a brother, John Douglas Mello of New York City; and his paternal grandmother, Alice Mello, of Barefoot Bay, Florida. [NO RECORD]
   61. Jeff Mladenik, 43, of Hinsdale, Illinois, was the interim president at E-Logic. [NO RECORD]
   62. Antonio Montoya [82 RECORDS, all states]
   63. Carlos Montoya [23 RECORDS]
   64. Laura Lee Morabito, 34, was the Qantas Airways area sales manager in Boston. She lived in Framingham, Massachusetts, with her husband. She was traveling on company business at the time of her death. [NO RECORD]
   65. Mildred Naiman was from Andover, Massachusetts. [1 RECORD]
   66. Laurie Neira [1 RECORD, unknown state]
   67. Renee Newell, 37, of Cranston, Rhode Island, was a customer service agent with American Airlines. [NO RECORD]
   68. Jacqueline Norton, 60, was a retiree from Lubec, Maine. She was traveling with her husband, Robert Norton. [NO RECORD]
   69. Robert Norton, 82, was a retiree from Lubec, Maine. He was traveling with his wife, Jacqueline Norton. [5 RECORDS]
   70. Jane Orth, 49, of Haverhill, Massachusetts, was retired from Lucent Technology. [NO RECORD]
   71. Thomas Pecorelli, 31, of Los Angeles, California, was a cameraman for Fox Sports and E! Entertainment Television. [NO RECORD]
   72. Sonia Morales Puopolo, 58, of Dover, Massachusetts, was a retired ballet dancer. [NO RECORD]
   73. David Retik was from Needham, Massachusetts. He was a general partner and founding member of Alta Communications, a Boston-based investment firm specializing in communication industries. Retik graduated from Colgate University and received a master's in accounting from New York University. He is survived by his wife, Susan and their two children, Ben and Molly. [NO RECORD]
   74. Philip Rosenzweig of Acton, Massachusetts, was an executive with Sun Microsystems. [NO RECORD]
   75. Richard Ross, 58, of Newton, Massachusetts, headed his own management consulting company, the Ross Group. 8 [RECORDS]
   76. Jessica Sachs, 22, of Billerica, Massachusetts was an accountant with PricewaterhouseCoopers. [NO RECORD]
   77. Rahma Salie, 28, was from Boston. [NO RECORD]
   78. Heather Smith, 30, of Beacon Capital Partners was from Boston. [1 RECORD]
   79. Douglas Stone, 54, was from Dover, New Hampshire. [NO RECORD]
   80. Xavier Suarez [1 RECORD, Xavier G, (NJ)]
   81. Michael Theodoridis, 32, was a consultant from Boston. [NO RECORD]
   82. James Trentini, 65, was a retired teacher and assistant principal from Everett, Massachusetts. [1 RECORD, James A, (MA)]
   83. Mary Trentini, 67, was a retired secretary from Everett, Massachusetts. [2 RECORDS, Mary, Mary B, (MA)]
   84. Mary Wahlstrom, 75, of Kaysville, Utah, was traveling with her daughter, Carolyn Beug. They had gone to Boston to drop off relatives at a nearby college and were returning home. [1 RECORD, Mary A (UT)]
   85. Kenneth Waldie, 46, of Methuen, Massachusetts, was a Raytheon Co. senior quality control engineer for electronic systems in Tewksbury, Massachusetts. He had worked for Raytheon for 17 years. [NO RECORD]
   86. John Wenckus, 46, was a tax consultant from Torrance, California. [NO RECORD]
   87. Candace Lee Williams, 20, was a student from Danbury, Connecticut. [NO RECORD]
   88. Christopher Zarba, 47, of Hopkinton, Massachusetts, was a software engineer at Concord Communications. He leaves behind a wife and family. He would have been 48 on September 15. [NO RECORD] 


- 6 Mar 2005 , 19:06 PM

   Flight 77 Public Records, SSA Death Records
   These are the results of querying the names of crew and passengers against the Death Records, Public Records, SSA Master Death File Database, by Name and State combination and where no state is available all states were used.
   AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 77
   American Airlines Flight 77, from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon with 64 people aboard.
   http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/tra...7.victims.html
   This list is 9 people shy. 64 People were reported lost, CNN only print 55 names.
   CREW
   1.Charles Burlingame III of Herndon, Virginia, was the plane's captain. He is survived by a wife, a daughter and a grandson. He had more than 20 years of experience flying with American Airlines and was a former U.S. Navy pilot. [2 RECORDS ]
   2. David Charlebois, who lived in Washington's Dupont Circle neighborhood, was the first officer on the flight. "He was handsome and happy and very centered," his neighbor Travis White, told The Washington Post. "His life was the kind of life I wanted to have some day." [NO RECORD]
   3. Michele Heidenberger of Chevy Chase, Maryland, was a flight attendant for 30 years. She left behind a husband, a pilot, and a daughter and son. [NO RECORD]
   4. Flight attendant Jennifer Lewis, 38, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the wife of flight attendant Kenneth Lewis. [4 RECORDS : Lewis Jennie ?]
   5. Flight attendant Kenneth Lewis, 49, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the husband of flight attendant Jennifer Lewis. [8 RECORDS]
   6. Renee May, 39, of Baltimore, Maryland, was a flight attendant. [NO RECORD]


   PASSENGERS


   7. Paul Ambrose, 32, of Washington, was a physician who worked with the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the surgeon general to address racial and ethnic disparities in health. A 1995 graduate of Marshall University School of Medicine, Ambrose last year was named the Luther Terry Fellow of the Association of Teachers of Preventative Medicine. [NO RECORD]
   8. Yeneneh Betru, 35, was from Burbank, California. [NO RECORD]
   9. M.J. Booth [NO RECORD]
   10. *Bernard Brown, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society. [4 RECORDS]
   11. Suzanne Calley, 42, of San Martin, California, was an employee of Cisco Systems Inc. [NO RECORD]
   12. William Caswell [90 RECORDS]
   13.Sarah Clark, 65, of Columbia, Maryland, was a sixth-grade teacher at Backus Middle School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society. [16 RECORDS]
   14. Asia Cottom, 11, was a student at Backus Middle School in Washington. Asia was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society. [NO RECORD]
   15. James Debeuneure, 58, of Upper Marlboro, Maryland, was a fifth-grade teacher at Ketcham Elementary School in Washington. He was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society. [NO RECORD]
   16. Rodney Dickens, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society. [NO RECORD]
   17. Eddie Dillard [50 RECORDS]
   18. Charles Droz [6 RECORDS)
   19. Barbara Edwards, 58, of Las Vegas, Nevada, was a teacher at Palo Verde High School in Las Vegas. [NO RECORD]
   20. Charles S. Falkenberg, 45, of University Park, Maryland, was the director of research at ECOlogic Corp., a software engineering firm. He worked on data systems for NASA and also developed data systems for the study of global and regional environmental issues. Falkenburg was traveling with his wife, Leslie Whittingham, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3. [NO RECORD]
   21. Zoe Falkenberg, 8, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham. [NO RECORD]
   22. Dana Falkenberg, 3, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham. [NO RECORD]
   23. Joe Ferguson was the director of the National Geographic Society's geography education outreach program in Washington. He was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. A Mississippi native, he joined the society in 1987. "Joe Feguson's final hours at the Geographic reveal the depth of his commitment to one of the things he really loved," said John Fahey Jr., the society's president. "Joe was here at the office until late Monday evening preparing for this trip. It was his goal to make this trip perfect in every way." [ 5 RECORDS]
   24. Wilson "Bud" Flagg of Millwood, Virginia, was a retired Navy admiral and retired American Airlines pilot. [NO RECORD - with or without nickname]
   25. Dee Flagg [20 RECORDS, Dorothy?]
   26. Richard Gabriel [37 RECORDS]
   27. Ian Gray, 55, of Washington was the president of a health-care consulting firm. [NO RECORD]
   28. Stanley Hall, 68, was from Rancho Palos Verdes, California. [19 RECORDS]
   29. Bryan Jack, 48, of Alexandria, Virginia, was a senior executive at the Defense Department. [NO RECORD]
   30. Steven D. "Jake" Jacoby, 43, of Alexandria, Virginia, was the chief operating officer of Metrocall Inc., a wireless data and messaging company. [NO RECORD]
   31. Ann Judge, 49, of Virginia was the travel office manager for the National Geographic Society. She was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. Society President John Fahey Jr. said one of his fondest memories of Judge is a voice mail she and a colleague once left him while they were rafting the Monkey River in Belize. "This was quintessential Ann -- living life to the fullest and wanting to share it with others," he said. [NO RECORD]
   32. Chandler Keller, 29, was a Boeing propulsion engineer from El Segundo, California. [NO RECORD]
   33. Yvonne Kennedy [17 RECORDS]
   34. Norma Khan, 45, from Reston, Virginia was a nonprofit organization manager. [NO RECORD]
   35. Karen A. Kincaid, 40, was a lawyer with the Washington firm of Wiley Rein & Fielding. She joined the firm in 1993 and was part of the its telecommunications practice. She was married to Peter Batacan. [NO RECORD]
   36. Norma Langsteuerle [NO RECORD]
   37. Dong Lee (75 RECORDS- lots of variations)
   38. Dora Menchaca, 45, of Santa Monica, California, was the associate director of clinical research for a biotech firm. [NO RECORD]
   39. Christopher Newton, 38, of Anaheim, California, was president and chief executive officer of Work-Life Benefits, a consultation and referral service. He was married and had two children. Newton was on his way back to Orange County to retrieve his family's yellow Labrador, who had been left behind until they could settle into their new home in Arlington, Virginia. [NO RECORD]
   40. Barbara Olson, 45, was a conservative commentator who often appeared on CNN and was married to U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson. She twice called her husband as the plane was being hijacked and described some details, including that the attackers were armed with knives. She had planned to take a different flight, but she changed it at the last minute so that she could be with her husband on his birthday. She worked as an investigator for the House Government Reform Committee in the mid-1990s and later worked on the staff of Senate Minority Whip Don Nickles. [106 RECORDS ??]
   41. Ruben Ornedo, 39, of Los Angeles, California, was a Boeing propulsion engineer. [NO RECORD]
   42. Robert Penniger, 63, of Poway, California, was an electrical engineer with BAE Systems. [NO RECORD]
   43. Lisa Raines, 42, was senior vice president for government relations at the Washington office of Genzyme, a biotechnology firm. She was from Great Falls, Virginia, and was married to Stephen Push. She worked with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration on developing a new policy governing cellular therapies, announced in 1997. She also worked on other major health-care legislation. [NO RECORD]
   44. Todd Reuben, 40, of Potomac, Maryland, was a tax and business lawyer. [NO RECORD]
   45. John Sammartino [ 7 RECORDS]
   46. Diane Simmons [7 RECORDS]
   47. George Simmons [759 RECORDS]
   48. Mari-Rae Sopper of Santa Barbara, California, was a women's gymnastics coach at the University of California at Santa Barbara. She had just gotten the post August 31 and was making the trip to California to start work. [NO RECORD]
   49. Bob Speisman, 47, was from Irvington, New York. [NO RECORD]
   50. Hilda Taylor was a sixth-grade teacher at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society. [5 RECORDS]
   51. Leonard Taylor was from Reston, Virginia. [14 RECORDS]
   52. Leslie A. Whittington, 45, was from University Park, Maryland. The professor of public policy at Georgetown University in Washington was traveling with her husband, Charles Falkenberg, 45, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3. They were traveling to Los Angeles to catch a connection to Australia. Whittington had been named a visiting fellow at Australian National University in Canberra. [NO RECORD]
   53. John Yamnicky, 71, was from Waldorf, Maryland. [1 RECORD]
   54. Vicki Yancey [1 RECORD]
   54. Shuyin Yang [NO RECORD]
   55. Yuguag Zheng [NO RECORD] 


- 6 Mar 2005 , 20:34 PM

   Flight 175 - Public Records Master Death List, SSA
   UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 175
   United Airlines Flight 175, from Boston, Massachusetts, to Los Angeles, California, was the second hijacked plane to strike the World Trade Center, plowing into the south tower.
   NB : Two pilots, seven flight attendants and 56 passengers were on board. Total = 65
   CNN print names of only 56 passengers and crew.
   http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/tra...5.victims.html
   CREW
   1. Capt. Victor Saracini, 51, of Lower Makefield Township, Pennsylvania, was a Navy veteran. He is survived by his wife and two children. [NO RECORD]
   2. Michael Horrocks was first officer. [ 1 RECORD, Michael R, state unknown]
   3.Robert J. Fangman was a flight attendant. [3 RECORDS, no middle initial , CA, KY, OH]
   4. Amy N. Jarret, 28, of North Smithfield, Rhode Island, was a flight attendant. [NO RECORD, with and without initial]
   5. Amy R. King was a flight attendant. [NO RECORD - Amy R. King, 59 Amy King ]
   6. Kathryn L. Laborie was a flight attendant. [NO RECORD, with and without initial]
   7. Alfred G. Marchand of Alamogordo, New Mexico, was a flight attendant. NO RECORD, with or without initial]
   8. Michael C. Tarrou was a flight attendant. [NO RECORD, Michael C. , 2 Michael Tarrou, FL, WV]
   9. Alicia N. Titus was a flight atteandant. [NO RECORD, with and without initial]
   PASSENGERS
   10. Alona Avraham, 30, was from Ashdot, Israel. [NOT INCLUDED]
   11. Garnet "Ace" Bailey, 53, of Lynnfield, Massachusetts, was director of pro scouting for the Los Angeles Kings hockey team. Bailey was entering his 33rd season as a player or scout in the National Hockey League and his eighth with the Kings. Before joining the Kings, he spent 13 years as a scout for the Edmonton Oilers, a team that won five Stanley Cups during that time. As a player, Bailey spent five years with the Boston Bruins and was a member of Stanley Cup championship teams in 1969-70 and 1971-72. Bailey also spent parts of two seasons each with the Detroit Red Wings and St. Louis Blues, and three years with the Washington Capitals. He is survived by his wife, Katherine, and son, Todd. [ NO RECORD, with or without nick]


   12. Mark Bavis, 31, of West Newton, Massachusetts, was entering his second season as an amateur scout for the Los Angeles Kings. A Boston native, he played four years on Boston University's hockey team, where his twin brother, Michael, is an assistant coach. In addition to his twin brother, Bavis is survived by his mother, Mary; two other brothers, Pat and Johnny; and three sisters, Kelly, Mary Ellen and Kathy. The Bavis family lost a brother 15 years ago, and Bavis' father died 10 years ago. [NO RECORD]
   13. Graham Berkeley, 37, of Xerox Corp. was from Wellesley, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   14. Touri Bolourchi, 69, was from Beverly Hills, California. [NO RECORD]
   15. Klaus Bothe, 31, of Germany was on a business trip with BCT Technology AG's chief executive officer and another executive. Bothe joined the company in 1994 and was its director of development. He is survived by his wife and one child. [NOT INCLUDED]
   16. Daniel Brandhorst, of Los Angeles, California, was a lawyer for PriceWaterhouse. [NO RECORD]
   17. David Brandhorst, 3, was from Los Angeles. [NO RECORD]
   18. John Cahill was from Wellesley, Massachusetts. [41 RECORDS, some unknowns)
   19. Christoffer Carstanjen, 33, of Turner Falls, Massachusetts, was staff assistant in the office of information technology at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst. [NO RECORD]
   20. John "Jay" Corcoran, 44, of Norwell, Massachusetts, was a merchant marine. NO RECORD John "Jay", 33 RECORDS John Corcoran]
   21. Dorothy Dearaujo, 82, was from Long Beach, California. [NO RECORD]
   22. Gloria Debarrera [NO RECORD]
   23. Lisa Frost, 22, of Rancho Santa Margarita, California, graduated from Boston University this year, with degrees in communications and business hospitality. She is survived by her father, mother and brother. [NO RECORD]
   24. Ronald Gamboa, 33, of Los Angeles, California, was a Gap store manager. [NO RECORD]
   25. Lynn Goodchild, 25, was from Attleboro, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   26. The Rev. Francis E. Grogan, 76, of Easton, Massachusetts, was a priest at Holy Cross Church in Easton. A veteran of World War II, Grogan served as a parish priest, a chaplain and teacher at Holy Cross schools. [NO RECORD]
   27. Carl Hammond, 37, was from Boston, Massachusetts. [1 RECORD]
   28. Peter Hanson, 32, of Groton, Massachusetts, was a software salesman. [2 RECORDS, ( MA , unknown)]
   29. Susan Hanson, 35, of Groton, Massachusetts, was a student. [NO RECORD]
   30. Christine Hanson, 3, was from Groton, Massachusetts. [1 RECORD]
   31. Gerald Hardacre [2 RECORDS]
   32. Eric Hartono [NO RECORD]
   33. James E. Hayden, 47, of Westford, Massachusetts, was the chief financial officer of Netegrity Inc. Hayden is survived by his wife, Gail, and their two children. [NO RECORD James E Hayden, 8 RECORDS for James Hayden (MA)]
   34. Herbert Homer,48, of Milford, Massachusetts, worked for Raytheon Co. [ NO RECORD]
   35. Robert Jalbert, 61, of Swampscott, Massachusetts, was a salesman. [2 RECORDS (MA)]
   36. Ralph Kershaw, 52, of Manchester-by-the-Sea, Massachusetts, was a marine surveyor. [1 record]
   37. Heinrich Kimmig, 43, chairman and chief executive officer of BCT Technology Ag, of Germany was on a business trip involving contract negotiations with U.S. partners along with two other BCT execs, the company said in a statement. Kimmig studied mechanical engineering in college. After an internship, he became the design manager at Badische Stahl Engineering, and shortly after, he founded BSE Computer-Technologie GmbH, originally a locally operating software company. In 1999, this company became BCT Technology AG. Kimmig is survived by his wife and two children. [not included]
   38. Brian Kinney, 29, of Lowell, Massachusetts, was an auditor for PriceWaterhouse Cooper. [NO RECORD]
   39. Robert LeBlanc, 70, of Lee, New Hampshire, was a professor emeritus of geography at the University of New Hampshire. After earning his doctorate at the University of Minnesota, LeBlanc joined the University of New Hampshire's faculty in 1963 as a cultural geographer. With a specialty in Canadian studies, he looked at the Franco-American communities in New England's mill towns. He was acting chair and chair of the geography department for nearly 10 years, retiring in 1999. ( 1 RECORD, Robert G LeBlanc]
   40. Maclovio "Joe" Lopez Jr., 41, was from Norwalk, California. [1 recorded, inverted Lopez Maclovio]
   41. Marianne MacFarlane [42 RECORDS]
   42 Louis Neil Mariani, 59, was from Derry, New Hampshire. [NO RECORD?]
   43. Juliana Valentine McCourt, 4, was from New London, Connecticut. [NO RECORD]
   44. Ruth McCourt, 24, was from Westford, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   45. Wolfgang Menzel, 60, of Germany joined BCT Technology AG in 2000 as director of human resources. He is survived by his wife and one child. Menzel had planned to retire in six months. [NOT INCLUDED]
   46. Shawn Nassaney, 25, was from Pawtucket, Rhode Island. [NO RECORD]
   47. Patrick Quigley, 40, of Wellesley, Massachusetts, was a partner at PriceWaterhouse Cooper. [NO RECORD]
   48. Frederick Rimmele was a physician from Marblehead, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   49. James M. Roux, 42, was from Portland, Maine. [NO RECORD]
   50. Jesus Sanchez, 45, was an off-duty flight attendant from Hudson, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   51. Kathleen Shearer was from Dover, New Hampshire. [NO RECORD]
   52. Robert Shearer was from Dover, New Hampshire. [1 RECORD, Robert M. Shearer]
   53. Jane Simpkin, 35, was from Wayland, Massachusetts. [NO RECORD]
   54. Brian D. Sweeney, 38, was from Barnstable, Massachusetts. [1 RECORD no D, Just Brian Sweeney (MA)]
   55. Timothy Ward, 38, of San Diego, California, worked at the Carlsbad, California-based Rubio's Restaurants Inc. A 14-year veteran of the company, he opened its second restaurant in San Diego and most recently worked in the information technology department. [1 RECORD]
   56. William Weems of Marblehead, Massachusetts, was a commercial producer. [NO RECORD] 


- 6 Mar 2005 , 22:59 PM

   Flight 93 - Death Records Public Records SSA Master Death
   Before I start I think it's worth pointing out, that I'm not claiming this to be absolute facts, these are the results of querying the names of crew and passengers against the Death Records Public Records SSA Master Death File Database, by name and state combination and where no state is available all states were used.


   One other thing, I don't know if this has been noticed before but:
   The list I am using is from CNN. It claims that there were 45 on board yet only prints the name of 33? Were there 12 hijackers on board?? And why is there so little information on a lot of the passengers, a simple unverifiable name in most cases.
   UNITED AIRLINES FLIGHT 93
   United Airlines Flight 93, 45 people on board.
   CREW
   1. Jason Dahl, 43, from Denver, Colorado, was the plane's captain. He had a wife and son. Dahl had a lifelong interest in flying, said his aunt, Maxine Atkinson, of Waterloo, Iowa. [NO RECORD]
   2. Leroy Homer, 36, from Marlton, New Jersey, was the first officer on board. He was married and had a daughter. [NO RECORD]
   3. Lorraine Bay was a flight attendant. [NO RECORD, all states]
   4. Sandra Bradshaw, 38, of Greensboro, North Carolina, was a flight attendant. [NO RECORD]
   5. Wanda Green was a flight attendant. (64 RECORDS, all states)
   6. CeeCee Lyles of Fort Myers, Florida, was a flight attendant. She reached her husband, Lorne, by cell phone to tell him that she loved him and their children before the plane went down. The couple between them had four children. [NO RECORD CeeCee, Cecelia]
   7. Deborah Welsh was a flight attendant. [7 RECORDS, all states]
   PASSENGERS
   8. Christian Adams [6 RECORDS, all states]
   9. Todd Beamer, 32, was from Cranbury, New Jersey. [NO RECORD] :-O
   10. Alan Beaven, 48, of Oakland, California, was an environmental lawyer. [NO RECORD]
   11. Mark Bingham, 31, of San Francisco owned a public relations firm, the Bingham Group. He called his mother, Alice Hoglan, 15 minutes before the plane crashed and told her that the plane had been taken over by three men who claimed to have a bomb. Hoglan said her son told her that some passengers planned to try to regain control of the plane. "He said, 'I love you very, very much, ' " Hoglan said. [NO RECORD]
   12. Deora Bodley, 20, of Santa Clara, California, was a university student. [NO RECORD]
   13. Marion Britton [23 RECORDS, all states]
   14. Thomas E. Burnett Jr., 38, of San Ramon, California, was a senior vice president and chief operating officer of Thoratec Corp., a medical research and development company, and the father of three. He made four calls to his wife, Deena, from the plane. Deena Burnett said that her husband told her that one passenger had been stabbed and that "a group of us are going to do something." He also told her that the people on board knew about the attack on the World Trade Center, apparently through other phone calls. [NO RECORD Thomas E Burnett Jr, 14 RECORDS Thomas Burnett (CA)]
   15. William Cashman [77 RECORDS, all states)
   16. Georgine Corrigan [NO RECORD, all states]
   17. Joseph Deluca [241 RECORDS]
   18. Patrick Driscoll [64 RECORDS, all states]
   19. Edward Felt, 41, was from Matawan, New Jersey. [NO RECORD]
   20. Colleen Fraser [1 RECORD Colleen L Fraser (NJ)]
   21. Andrew Garcia [68 RECORDS]
   22. Jeremy Glick, 31, from West Milford, New Jersey, called his wife, Liz, and in-laws in New York on a cell phone to tell them the plane had been hijacked, Joanne Makely, Glick's mother-in-law, told CNN. Glick said that one of the hijackers "had a red box he said was a bomb, and one had a knife of some nature," Makely said. Glick asked Makely if the reports about the attacks on the World Trade Center were true, and she told him they were. He left the phone for a while, returning to say, "The men voted to attack the terrorists," Makely said. [NO RECORD]
   23. Lauren Grandcolas of San Rafael, California, was a sales worker at Good Housekeeping magazine. [NO RECORD]
   24. Donald F. Green, 52, was from Greenwich, Connecticut. [NO RECORD Donald F. Green, 4 records Donald Green (CT)]
   25. Linda Gronlund [NO RECORD]
   26. Richard Guadagno, 38, of Eureka, California, was the manager of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's Humboldt Bay National Wildlife Refuge. [NO RECORD]
   27. Toshiya Kuge [NO RECORD]
   28. Waleska Martinez [NO RECORD]
   29. Nicole Miller [7 RECORDS, varying middle names, (all states, 3 unknown)]
   30 Mark Rothenberg [2 RECORDS, Mark D unknown state)]
   31. Christine Snyder, 32, was from Kailua, Hawaii. She was an arborist for the Outdoor Circle and was returning from a conference in Washington. She had been married less than a year. [NO RECORD]
   32. John Talignani [1 RECORD, (NY)]
   33. Honor Wainio [NO RECORD] 


- 7 Mar 2005 , 10:54 AM

---

Before anyone else wonders why brianv is on this forum, besides that fact that there's not really a reason for him not to be here, let's please remember just a few facts about his record:

1. He was in the earliest people questioning the actual existence of the 9/11 deaths, before Simon or I formally looked into it at 911movement.org — figuratively ahead of most of us by many miles — years before Simon's 'September Clues'

2. He has repeatedly found and pointed out shills before anyone else; you can say it's a problem when he is aggressive toward people who mean well, but credit where it's due; metaphorically, he doesn't "blink" when we have to clear the board of a liar — he helpfully moves on and tries to help us understand what we might have missed about early signs of disingenuous behavior

3. He is essentially the reason Reality Shack and CluesForum.info even exist — encouraging Simon and I to do our own thing and run a forum where there was clearly one lacking — beyond a founding member, practically the founder, though he is shy about admitting this

4. He cuts to the chase, gets to the point, etc. — so I miss him when he periodically gets annoyed and leaves, and I for one don't want him to ever go for good [/sappy]

Thanks!

See also

References

Fakeologist

Cluesforum

Hoaxbusters


Other