November 17, 2014 at 9:54 am #92507
I was just listening to the Audiochat between PShea, Ro11o and Psopticon on Hillsborough
August 2 2014
from about 2:40:00 onwards
Worth noting here. Psyopticon takes us through his shadow analysis of the Hillsborough match – see pages 1-4 here, especially 4. I tend to agree with Tom that the shadows are an illusion and indeed at 5:00 the sun goes in during continuous play. What is strange is the two separate centre line viewpoints – cf 5:19 and 5:21 although the positions of the players and referee is consistent.
check also 5:38
not much activity
green man is still prowling at 7:13
AT 5:27 the police calmly escort some fans from the touchline into the stands behind the action, one looks towards the goal. A line of police to the right of the barrier jumpers shows now movement.
November 17, 2014 at 10:25 am #92556
Here’s the same group of police move towards the centre line from the right side of it…
The throwout at 10:31 doesn’t appear in the Irish footage, being hidden by a shot of the crowd on the touchline next to the goal..[equates to 5:39 in the Irish footage]
note the different angle at 10:54 [6:54 in the Irish video]
Stephanie Jones has a significant part in this documentary
[and also at the start, t=0.19s] Strange non-reaction to what was unfolding behind here.November 19, 2014 at 6:06 am #94535
Interesting footage xileffilex. It appears Panorama has footage from the day that we haven’t seen. Time-stamped video that they’ve cut-in to their presented narrative. Presumably to give the time-line credibility? They insert their own time-line on the RTE footage that we’ve seen, but this ‘other’ footage which is shown in slightly murky quality and cut-in, appears to be presented as if from tape complete with a ticking time-line.
The time-stamp the Panorama show puts on the ‘RTE’ footage is a little strange to me. Why no seconds? It doesn’t tick…No big deal…
( Is this so they can put the simple figures 15:04 up, I just wondered for a moment. Remember 15-04 was the date too. At 10:26 in the Panorama footage below, we see the time stamp graphic 15:04 inserted – then we cut to the Goalkeeper throw-out and we see the ‘video timestamp’ saying 15-04-1989 and below, the time : 15-03 and seconds ticking towards 15-04. Quirky. I don’t know, just makes me wonder.)
We’re told there were 8 BBC camera crews and the police had cctv and mobile footage.
I think we’re to assume that the original time-stamped ‘VHS-looking’ footage is supposed
to be police ‘mobile footage’? Hand-held VHS I’d guess.
This footage looks a bit stilted. Perhaps deliberately jerky.
I’m not sure it isn’t just cut from the 8 BBC cameras and made to look like different rough footage with an added timestamp.
This would do the job of accounting for ‘other verifiable footage’ as was always claimed, but on this evidence, it’s as unclear in detail as the original TV.
FROM about 10:00 here we have some of this ‘other’ timestamped footage.
DalTampraNovember 19, 2014 at 6:25 am #94536
As regards Psyopticon and his Aunt Sally regarding this Hillsborough thread, I just want to make it clear that he said that he thought the Hillsborough psyop was pulled-off by faking the whole match and having an evacuated stadium.
We didn’t buy that line then and I certainly don’t buy it now.
If it was carried-out within one section of the Leppings Lane end, then there were tens of thousands of witnesses. They don’t know exactly what they saw, but they were there and they saw something.
DalTampraNovember 19, 2014 at 7:31 am #94586
Yes, indeed, Tom. Psyopticon’s position was absurd; I just wanted to show the “dimming of the [match of the] day” to disprove his point [at 5:00]. I haven’t finished with this one yet…
I have been scratching my head to remember who it is that Edna sounds like [either morphed or not] and it’s close to Roger Cook of the BBC. Remember him? Like the early John Lennon singing sounds like Bill Oddie of the Goodies…..
It must be standard practice to hold back oodles of footage and release it in dribs and drabs to confuse those unravelling the true event – as has recently happened over Woolwich and this week from the MH17 site [just going to flat this up] where in the latter there is a strong smell of misdirection rather than formaldehyde. Total limited hangout.December 4, 2014 at 7:26 pm #109231
Here’s one I have meant to have a look at ….173 people dead…very very hush hush…March 3 1943
here it comes…
It was the Hillsborough of its day.
One to mull over. There was ONE test court case to emerge from it. Yes, just one which was successful! Mrs Annie Baker was awarded GBP1,550 plus costs for the death of her husband [1,200] £250 for the less of her daughter Minnie Amelia aged 14 and £100 for the her own injuries. The court case, lasting six days, was held in camera claiming against the council.
There is a big problem already – she only had two sons according to birth records, born 1930 and 1935. She was married in 1928.
There was a 14 year old born called Minnie Amelia Baker to another mother in Stepney in 1928.
Here’s a survivor
He didn’t tell his family about it, wife and children until….2007!
What I want to know is why there was not a barrage of payout claims for injuries, loss of family members…that must have run into the several hundreds. Hundreds of thousands of pounds at wartime prices. Hmmmm
More than 60 needed hospital treatment [that’s £100 a go compensation, precedent set, isn’t it? Quite a tidy sum then]
Staff from the University of East London interviewed over 20 survivors, witnesses and family members to reconstruct the terrible events to give a voice to its victims.
The scale of this appalling tragedy was unprecedented it was the worst civilian disaster in modern British history (not caused by enemy action). There were 173 deaths, 62 of whom were children. The death toll was greater than the 1989 Hillsborough stadium tragedy and the 1966 disaster at Aberfan.
The lucky survivor story:
Babette Clarke was 11 when she headed to the shelter in 1943. She said a major raid had been expected.
Missing the bus probably saved her life, she said, because she would have been among the first to enter the shelter and be crushed otherwiseDecember 9, 2014 at 7:35 pm #114260
I just want to expand on Bethnal Green for a moment because of the similarties with other football disasters of the 80s.
There are several videos of witness Alf Morris, then aged 13, talking along with Peter Perryment and Bob Saxon…..
they were laying all the bodies out along the pavement – yet it was kept secret? “threw water on them, hoping to revive them…” [Dr Joan Martin, interviewed then aged 26 at the local Children’s hospital – b. circa 1917] 62 were children. Peter, b 1930 says his sister, aged 17 “died standing in front of me” [that would be Iris M Perryment]
Where were the bodies buried? The victims are listed here and following pages
Another video or two..
The strange case of litigation between one victim’s wife an Bethnal Green council has been alluded to. Here’s a strange story:
Eileen Bridger, nee Dyson
I was the telephone operator at Bethnal Green Town Hall during the war…On the night of 3 March 1943, I was on control duty in the Town Hall. This meant we responded to emergencies by sending out ambulances and fire engines.. Gradually stories started to come in that men who had been standing at the top of the steps having a cigarette, shouted that there was an air raid, and people had panicked and started to rush down the steps.
My father in law Jim Bridger was a warden down inside the Tube Station, and from what he experienced that night he had a nervous breakdown.
I remember that the bodies were laid out in the street waiting for ambulances to come. It was a dreadful night for everybody involved.
My mother in law, Margaret Bridger, was the mayor of Bethnal Green at the time of the disaster. Of course there was an enquiry and she had to make a report. The enquiry (I believe) pointed to the council’s lack of care in not putting a handrail down the centre of the staircase, and of course as Mayor, Mrs Bridger had to accept ultimate responsibility for the council’s actions. This coupled with her husband’s breakdown led to the Bridger family leaving Bethnal Green. In any case their house had been bombed, and they had had to sleep in the basement of the Town Hall, with the rest of us who were on night duty.
Hmmmm. Would a star handrail really have prevented anything?
But since this is a football thread, here is the 2014 charity match to raise funds for the memorial to the 173.
Percival James Bridger [b. Midhurst Sussex district 1897] married Margarette Sarah Littlehales,[b.1896] in Hanwell, West London in 1917, d. 1981 Birkenhead, Merseyside and Liverpool 1961 respectively. That’s a long way from Bethnal Green.December 10, 2014 at 4:37 am #114637
Check the middle video above. From about 5:20 witness Joan Keeper describing the bodies allegedly laid out in the street.
“…they’d been squashed – and I can’t say – it was all – their insides hanging out – and my dad got hold of me and covered my eyes…..”
Her real name is Henrietta Keeper, a local ballad singer; in this 2012 article [some great photos] there is no mention whatsoever of the 1943 incident.
The family history doesn’t quite check out so I suspect the above link does not accurately describe the family. Here’s some Cockney heritage with Henrietta
My friend, Doris said, “Me Mum’s worried about me, she’s down the tube, because the warning’s gone. Will you come with me down the tube?” So I linked my arm in my Mum’s and said, “No, I love my Mum and I want to stay here,” but she said “Oh come on.” She kept on and on, and I got fed up with it. All of a sudden, I thought, “All right, OK.” I was really going to go with her. I took two steps, and then I went back and put my arm into my Mum’s, and I said, “No, I don’t want to go. You go down there.” Everyone was racing to the tube, the police were all around, the traffic had stopped and big red buses were all lined up the length of the Bethnal Green Rd. So Doris went and there was a tube accident, one hundred and seventy-three people died, they all fell downstairs on top of each other and got suffocated – and I was saved, and I’m so glad I didn’t go.
no mention of seeing all the bodies, insides hanging out or otherwise.
http://spitalfieldslife.com/2012/04/16/chit-chat-three-gracious-ladies-mavis-bullwinkle-henrietta-keeper-joan-rose/December 11, 2014 at 5:25 pm #116273
The Daily Mail duly reported on Bethnal Green in 2008
Why did this story take so long to emerge? It is unfathomable.
in seconds, there were more deaths on one small stairwell than at the 1989 Hillsborough stadium tragedy or the 1966 catastrophe at Aberfan.[q.q.v]
… at street level, three buses had just screeched to a halt, disgorging yet more people wanting shelter. Some found themselves treading on to a floor of human bodies.
This was a staircase.
One or two near the bottom were still alive. But most of the faces, they were all purple and mauve.”
There were very few injured people. People were either suffocated or they walked away relatively unscathed.
“I do not think I saw a single case of a fractured ribs, which is extraordinary,” the police surgeon told the coroner’s inquest.
Ivy Brind, then 25, was one of a handful with lasting physical injuries – a partially-paralysed face. What really troubled her for the rest of her life, though, were the sounds of that night and the memory of her tiny nephew, Barry, who died in her arms
A year later, the Bethnal Green Corporation was successfully sued for negligence by Mrs Anne Baker, who lost her husband and 14-year-old daughter (she received £950 compensation for the loss of her husband and £250 for her daughter).
Similar awards were later paid out to all the bereaved families. The Mayor of Bethnal Green and her husband fled the area, broken and vilified
This is wrong – Mrs Baker receive £1,550 plus costs for her losses and injuries [contemporary reporting] equivalent to £60,000 today. [awarded July 18 1944] by Mr Justice Singleton
This is what was reported at the time in the press:
The real cause of the tragedy wasthe angerous condition of the steps.There were also other matters which contributed, for example the very poor lighting and the lack o a handrail in the centre. Another factor which probably added to the trouble was that there was no one on duty on the steps or entrance and those entering did not know what had taken place.
How can a mayor be responsible for that? As we see, at least one member of the council did not need to “flee”.
The witness produced to say an old woman had fallen was <Mrs Elisa Jones
which the judge conveniently accepted. Another witness, a Mrs Minns was produced to say she caught her heel in the last step but one [and somehow survived]
All wrapped up nicely. On thing I notice, awards were made in 1944 to Home Guard members by the next mayor, A.E.McAuliffe, JP, for their devotion to duty….sounds familiar. Except they don’t seem to have been stopping people going down the steps. Who should have received one of the awards but Private W.E.Turpin of “Signals”, son of Bethnal Green councillor Albert Edwin Turpin, artist and window clearer….the whole affair was secret until these awards “emerged”.
Cllr Turpin himself became mayor in 1947
Mr Bridger had been mayor twice in 1937-9.
If you want another secretive and really weird mass wartime casualty, try this one
http://laituk.org/B-24%2042-50291.htmDecember 12, 2014 at 7:56 am #116897
Interesting stuff. I’m temporarily off-line, which has caused my absence.
I shall return with gusto at some point soon, hopefully.
DalTampraFebruary 16, 2015 at 9:04 pm #182161
Specifically the English FA Cup draw.
We were treated to the round six draw tonight. They make a bit of a song and dance about it.
It’s always televised.
Where I’m at, the draws ( all the big sporting draws ) of course, must be fixed. It makes no sense to me, anymore, that they’re not. The only question is how?
May I suggest they simply have some way of having balls with a remotely controlled interchangeable number?
The balls can be switched to whatever number is desired as soon they’re withdrawn? We never seem to get close enough to see the numbers in the bowl in the real draw ( in the youtube posted at the bottom) unlike this title sequence simulation here where they show the balls.
Isn’t it just something simple like that? A mechanical trick?
All I know for sure is, we have an in-our-faces-con-trick, every round.
Draw from 2:12 here:
DalTampraFebruary 17, 2015 at 3:01 pm #182880anthonycaralloParticipant
weird around :45 on that last video the figures looked animated, maybe a fluke. I’ve wondered lately about the fakeness of televised team sports. What isn’t fake is the mind controlled thuggishness of the fans…
There are some things you can't cover up with lipstick and powder. Elvis CostelloFebruary 21, 2015 at 10:50 pm #186923
weird around :45 on that last video the figures looked animated, maybe a fluke.
Mmm Anthony, or maybe not. I was watching football(soccer) highlights tonight and just at one moment during the show as the camera angle changed and they went to a replay, it seemed to go a bit weird…like that clip at the :45 second mark a little, maybe. Seemingly a little smoother in texture, just perhaps…
This season we have seen in the Premier League here in the U.K, the introduction of goal-line technology. Some kind of sensor that can tell if the ball has crossed the line or not.
On the back of this, they’ve started to bring-in these cartoon simulations (like tennis now does with disputed line-calls) in showing replays.
They show the play in real-time and then morph the players into animation, it would appear.
The cartoon replays in tennis have always appeared to me to be a bit ludicrous.
On one level they make sense and have a place, they’re great. We can zoom in and see almost to the millimetre, but the more I watch tennis, the more I see cartoons showing me what happened at crucial moments. Every really close call and they go straight to cartoon. The decision, not based on this cartoon and is made ‘behind closed doors’.
It would always have been facile in tennis, to have had a camera close-up on the base-line, as it would be in football on the goal line, wouldn’t it? But we see the tennis and soccer powers have never gone for that.
Line technology has come in to tennis and soccer with these simulations. The cartoon simulation has it’s place but it now seems it’s become the go-to position. Contested line-call in tennis? Straight to cartoon. ”Hold on. Can I just see that in slow motion from an actual video camera? I’m watching real sport here, I didn’t tune in for cartoons…”
@ 0:12 seconds here:
What’s my point?
Well No.1, of course, it’s totally corruptible. It can be done. If you want, you can call in or out on a close decision, whichever way you want and show a cartoon as ‘proof’.
No.2, I see that we’re being conditioned to accept cartoons as ‘gospel’.
This looks like the beginning of the blurring of reality, maybe?
So yeh, back to earlier when I was watching Match of the Day and it went to a regular replay and I thought it went a bit weird for a moment. ‘Seemingly a little smoother in texture, perhaps’, just for a moment or two. Is this dipping a toe in the water, I wonder? Are they starting to animate play a bit?
Maybe I’m seeing things, but maybe I’m not. The natural extension of this idea of cartoonery in mainstream sport is complete control of the replays, isn’t it?
Wouldn’t ‘they’ like to do that?
Worth keeping half an eye on I reckon. 😉
DalTampraFebruary 26, 2015 at 2:40 pm #191208NemesisParticipant
They probably won’t need to use cartoons when you have this 😉April 12, 2015 at 6:29 pm #235279
Jumping back again to 1989 – a good year for staged events – what are your feelings on Laurie Cunningham, Tom?
The mysterious friend Mark Cafwell [sic] Latty, the car passenger who vanishes, the relatively anonymous wife Sylvia and child…end of career…
a few starters for 10:
15 julio 2014
Notice this page gives the name of the mysterious friend more realistically as “Mark Carswell [sic
Latty but actually was Mark Caswell Latty, allegedly an American studying at Madrid University
correctly identified here [not Carswell or Cafwell]:
16 JUL 1989
I can’t find an image of the auto wreck.
rough googletrans synopsis
It’s 06:45 am: Laurie speeds at the height of Pozuelo de Alarcón, the Ibiza flies, and life will go on a curve. After hitting a lamppost and dump, Laurie Paul Cunningham, a player without a team or much luck, ejected several feet and hits his head on the asphalt. A police patrol encounters the accident, but it’s late. Latty, hardly suffers minor injuries; that same July 15 will be discharged from the Hospital to disappear without a trace immediately.
The British footballer of Jamaican descent Laurie Cunningham died yesterday in Madrid, at 33 years old, as a result of a traffic accident occurred at 6.45. The car he was driving a Seat Ibiza enrollment M-6296-FM, left the carriageway of the road to La Coruña, the N-VI, a 6.5 kilometer (Puerta de Hierro) and direction the capital, crashed into a lamppost and protective fence and overturned. Cunningham, former Real Madrid, Sporting Gijon and Rayo Vallecano, appeared about 10 meters from the vehicle with a broken head and loss of brain tissue. He was taken to the Hospital, where he died despite the attentions that were lent.
Black footballing legend bows out.
Guess what – Mark Caswell Latty also checked out early in 2005, aged 45
There’s an interesting story here about the enigmatic Mr Latty an his Japanese wife from 1995
November 29, 1995
When Tristin Shikakura Latty was visited by his grandmother last week, it was more than an opportunity for Toshiko Shikakura to see her first Japanese-American grandchild.
She also enjoyed her first Thanksgiving with the family, say Kimiyo and Mark Caswell Latty, Tristin’s parents.
“It was a reunification of families,” says Mark Latty. “Just like Thanksgiving should be – to give thanks for the things that we have and to share that time with the people we love.”
Toshiko Shikakura, who lives in Japan, was visiting for two weeks.
“The grandmother wanted to hold the baby and care for him,” Latty says.
His wife, who was born in Japan, descends from the Takahashi Shogun Dynasty. Therefore, Tristin will have two passports – an American passport and a Japanese passport – until he turns 22, when he will choose his nationality.
Latty emphasizes that he will not influence Tristin’s decision, but he would like him to experience the “American Dream.”
“It’s his choice; I will not get involved in that,” he says about Tristin who was born Oct. 27 at Plantation General Hospital.
The Lattys, who live in southwest Fort Lauderdale, hope Tristin will choose to go to either Duke University or Harvard University, which several family members attended. And they want to bring him up to respect people and appreciate other cultures.
“We will teach our child to respect and understand others along the road of achievement and to remember that love is not measured by the people he loves, but rather by the people who love him,” Latty says.
He would like Tristin to follow in his deceased grandfathers’ paths.
Sam Latty, who died in 1979, became an Eagle Scout at 11, enrolled in college at 15 and, at age 23, received a degree in medicine from Duke University.
Kenji Shikakura, who died in Japan seven years ago, owned and operated a tofu company.
We find Eugenia Caswell Latty [b.1926, previously of Chevy Chase, MD] and Tristin here
Kimiyo Shikakura Latty and Mark sold this house [foreclosure] in Fort Lauderdale in 2001.
A shame that Mark never put pen to paper regarding this high profile death and lucky escape or his student days at Madrid University…..or his company Caswell Internazionale
https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_fl/P95000003178April 12, 2015 at 7:08 pm #235313
The crash is covered at 7:35 onwards here
note the wreck at 7:56
followed by John Barnes and his cheerful son Sergio Sendin Cunningham
The wreck doesn’t look like anyone would have been catapulted out from it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_CunninghamApril 16, 2015 at 5:43 pm #238645
The blaze that killed 56 football fans at Bradford City’s Valley Parade ground in 1985 was just one of at least nine fires at businesses owned by or associated with the club’s then chairman, according to extraordinary evidence published for the first time.
The Story of the Bradford Fire: ‘could any man really be as unlucky as Stafford Heginbotham?’
The revelations are contained in a book written by Martin Fletcher, a Bradford fan who lost three generations of his family in the stadium fire. Fletcher believes the fire was not an accident and says he and his family are no longer willing to “live the myth”.
Fletcher managed to escape after the timber main stand at Valley Parade turned into a death trap during Bradford’s game against Lincoln City on 11 May 1985. His brother, Andrew, 11, was the youngest victim and his father John, 34, uncle Peter, 32, and grandfather Eddie, 63, all perished. Martin Fletcher, who was 12 at the time, has spent the past 15 years investigating what happened and his book, Fifty-Six – The Story of the Bradford Fire, is published on Thursday 16 April.
The book, serialised by the Guardian today and tomorrow, reveals there had been at least eight other fires at business premises either owned by, or connected to, Stafford Heginbotham, Bradford’s then-chairman, in the previous 18 years, resulting in huge insurance claims.
The book was released today…and in 9 days time…
a minute’s silence is held at every Premier League and Football League match to mark the forthcoming 30th anniversary.
So, we are led to believe that Heginbotham set fire to a football stand full of people at a match for an insurance payout when he could have done it any time with an empty stand?September 25, 2015 at 8:43 am #415235
Interesting footage xileffilex.
Yes,and it has all been removed from YouTube, which is sending me, for one, a message.September 25, 2015 at 9:58 am #415290
Tom Dalpra wrote:
Interesting footage xileffilex.
Yes,and it has all been removed from YouTube, which is sending me, for one, a message.
Like the FA Cup draw clip and those other ones…gone…
They’ve probably taken that Hillsborough footage away for remastering.
It did all look a bit contrived to me.
As I said at the time : ”This footage looks a bit stilted. Perhaps deliberately jerky.
I’m not sure it isn’t just cut from the 8 BBC cameras and made to look like different rough footage with an added time stamp.”
The footage must still exist. But does it see the light of day anymore?
DalTampraSeptember 25, 2015 at 11:44 am #415405psyopticonParticipant
Welcome back xileffelix.
Just reviewing this thread. I stand by my speculation earlier: the Hillsborough soccer disaster was orchestrated using a stadium empty of genuine spectators; what was broadcast was carefully-framed pre-recorded footage; actors playing the dead, injured and first aiders on the pitch. And that was then weaved in with genuine crowd footage captured at earlier games.
Not sure why that’s seen as absurd. It’s exactly what happened on 911. Most of us accept now that the twin towers, and downtown Manhattan were already evacuated, and footage showing human population in the area was nothing but pre-recorded fakery. Same stunt at Hillsborough too, my guess.
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